Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

Wow, thats a read. It had the good, the bad, and the ugly. It is quite the epic tale. I guess my question would be that if your nitrates are brought to tolerable levels, most people are not experiencing a reduction in PO4. If PO4 is not reduced, brown outs and coral growth stunting would occur still correct? Or am I wrong? In order to get the PO4 out, what are y'all doing? Phosban? since the macroalgae wont do so hot, or just plain old water changes?
 
Okay i posted awhile back on wanting to try this. Although i didn't start as my main display was fallow from ick. Everyone is now back in the tank and i am needing to do this. Nitrates are high and i have a big cayano outbreak. Have done numerous water changes and siphoned it out and increased the flow but it is still there. I am running a phosphate reactor but have had enough of battling nitrates. I feed heavier than most as i have a regal angel in here that is a pelletts and nori only eater so i feed her more often.
So question is

1: is a remora pro skimmer enough areation for me to do this?
2: how much do i start with 1/2 tsp?
3: Should i still keep doing water changes?
4: Where do i add the sugar the sump?
and last but not least

When should i add it? Morning, night?

Sorry for all the questions but very excited about trying this.:)

Lisa
 
Also just a quick thought. What if i put a airstone in the return portion of my sump would that give the tank a little more oxygen? Just want to make sure i don't suffocate the fish:)

Lisa
 
Lisa, I have been dosing sugar a little over a week now and I have an extra airstone going ... figure it ca't hurt...

I also have another ??... about 3 weeks ago, before I discovered that my nitrates were sky high, I treated the tank for flatworms,that I had been fighting for awhile, with flatworm exit...I only did the treatment once and did the proper water changes and ran carbon as instructed. I do not believe it affected anything except the flatworms...I did not see any for about 2 weeks... well, I saw a few over the last few days... I do not want to wait for them to get everywhere again...I want to do one more treatment with FE... will this be ok while dosing the sugar?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9215734#post9215734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
OK, but what else is in there? Is that what you're useing? At least with the reef made AA's you get a recomended doseing schedual. I don't think the back of the stump remover tells you how much to dose in your tank.

Neither does the sugar you're dosing. Also, who says the amino acid reccomendations are even right?
 
I think one thing needs to be cleared up. The bacteria involved in denitrification do not use carbon as a food source, they use nitrogen. So they have nothing to do with this. I see at least two good explanations for what is happening. One is that the nitrates and sugar are forming a nitrogenous organic compound which is removed by the skimmer which is very plausible. Secondly, the sugar could be reducing the nitrates to nitrogen gas which is then expelled from the tank. There is some research on the use of sugar to reduce nitrate but not in water only in glass formation. These same explanations would hold true for the use of vodka also for those interested.

As for inorganic phosphates they can be removed by using a product called Phosbuster Pro, which is nothing more than ferrous chloride, or sulfate not sure which as it is not listed but both do the same thing, which flocs out the phosphates (inorganic only). It will initally turn your water cloudy as the floc forms, I use filtration to remove the floc. I personally have used Phosbuster to reduce my inorganic phosphate levels to near 0 from a high of 8 ppm. I now use a granular ferric hydroxide in a canister filter to keep the inorganic phosphates down and dose the Phosbuster about once a month. My organic phosphate levels are another issue, around 0.50 ppm and nothing seems to change them, even skimming. By the way Ferrous chloride has been used for decades in removing phosphates from wastewater by water treatment plants.

For the nay sayers out there I have 20 years experience in the water treatment industry and am an inorganic chemist by trade and a microbiologist by training. I have 40+ years FW tank experience and am just starting out with reefs. So give the kid who discovered this method a break as it is possible and I see no harm in adding sugar to a tank in small doses. 90% of the crap sold as additives don't even have a list of the ingredients and people happily pour the stuff in their tanks without a care.
 
the typically referenced species of bacteria that perform denitrification use nitrogen as their food (energy) source irregardless of the presence of carbon or not. energy is produced through a biochemical reaction the results of which ammonia is oxidized to nitrite and then to nitrate and eventually nitrogen gas as a final product. different bacteria handle the different stages of denitrification. the nitrogen is only used as a source of electrons (energy) to perform the biochemical reaction producing the true "food" and is not consumed. generally speaking these bacteria evolved because of a lack of another source of energy, carbon, sulfur or other. but i will freely admit that there are more explanations for the sugar effect than what i gave, there could be hundrerds of reasons why it works, and carbon enhancment could be one of them. if I had the full article it would be nice as there is no body of evidence and no results of testing and or conclusions.
 
one thing i forgot to add, the article is about wastewater where anaerobic digestion is used, that is a 100% anaerobic environment unlike a fish tank. these types of reactors have gone out of favor in waste treatment as too much can upset them killing off the bacteria, hence i suppose the use of ethanol or other carbons. i'm more inclined to believe that the sugar is forming a larger organic compound with the nitrate then is skimmed out. it would be easy to test this on an unskimmed sample of water i could probably set up a simple test in my lab to do this with my own tank water.
 
Kzooreefer,

I agree that if the skimmer is removing the nitrates that the bateria are not living in the anerobic area. I did find another area that explains the wastewater process fairly well:

http://www.barnstablecountyhealth.org/AlternativeWebpage/Basics/Basics.htm

Denitrication does take place in an anaerobic area. But the the end result of Denitrifacation are basically gases (CO2 and N2), water, and OH-. Nothing to be taken up by the skimmer. I wonder what is going on with the sugar?

How easy is it to run you experiment you suggested?

Cheers,
Chris
 
Okay going to start this. When do i add it. Should i do this in the morning so i can keep an eye on the fish for oxygen deprivation? I have added a medium sized airstone to the sump to make sure the oxygen stays up.

Thanks again
Lisa
 
okay so I started some preliminary lab tests. i don't have a skimmer setup that i can use in the lab so i'm just doing beaker tests, adding sugar water to water samples. i'm using a 10% weight to volume sugar solution and my reef tank water. i've done different volumes of the sugar solution to 50mL of tank water with a 20 minute reaction time. the preliminary results show no reduction in the nitrates, this is good for a couple of reasons. first, it eliminates sugar as an interference to the nitrate test method that may have given a false positive result. secondly, it eliminates a direct redox reaction, the sugar converting the nitrates to nitrogen gas, as a possible mechanism. as i can't skim the water at work i'm going to try this at home. i will dose my tank with the 10% sugar solution till i get a reaction out of my skimmer then take water samples from the skimmer resevoir at different time intervals up to 12 hours. this will give more insight into the role skimming might play. i would expect to see some reduction right away if this is just a surface reaction between sugar and nitrates, which i suspect it might be.

As far as the nitrate reducing bacteria utilizing carbon that is not actually correct. i found this article that really describes what is actually going on. it is a a nitrogen tolerant aerobic bacteria that is actually used to denitrify wastewater using a carbon source. so this possiblity is still open if this partricular species of bacteria or a close relative does in fact live in saltwater. and i think they do as az-no3 uses them to reduce the nitrate with their own product. could all az-no3 be is sugar water?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=106801

there is also a product on the market called AZ-NO3, absolute zero nitrates. from what i gather from their description of their product it is an substance that promotes the formation of an enzyme that facilitates the removal of nitrates by aerobes which is then removed by the skimmer. i saw this at a lfs this past weekend and almost bought it but the cost at $18 gave me second thoughts. i'd much rather add a little sugar and if this works then i've saved myself quite a load of money.
 
I really appreciate all the research you guys are doing... but for an old mom like me... what does it really mean, all the chemistry is going right over my head!! LOL Does the sugar work to reduce nitrates or not?

Thanks...
Jenni
 
i don't think there really is any questions as to does it work but some of us would like to know why and iron out the exact dosing.

as for the AZ-NO3 product iv'e done a little more research on what they claim it is and found that in the simpliest of terms it is sugar water with an added enzyme that helps aerobic bacteria use the sugar to reduce the nitrate. so there is more to the use of table sugar in fish tanks then first thought and using simple table sugar would save big bucks compared to the price of AZ-NO3.
 
One more question...
when the nitrates begin to fall, will they drop quickly or over time? I have been dosing almost 2 weeks and have seen very little change...skimmer IS producing a very thick skimmate still so something is going on...
 
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