no growth and pastel color

[franklypre]

NR, some guy pmed me. I'm thinking I'm gonna add 2 VHOs to the 58 and do away with the PAR38. Don't know whether I would prefer t5s or t12s, either way it will be the ones with the internal reflectors. Sucks about the fish any idea on whats going on? I've got chemicals but I know you probably don't want to go down that road, got some uv filters too. Let me know if I can help.

 

[daveonbass]

Well I can't put a UV on my tank anyways. But thanks.

I would go with T5s because they are easier to find.

I don't know what happened to the fish...but the problem is that now I can't find the carcass. I think something got to it and ate it. :/

 

[franklypre]

Sounds like a late night worm/critter search is in order. Bait em up with some mysis.

 

[daveonbass]

Yeah there is...but that sucker is a smart one. It never comes out for bait.

 

[daveonbass]

Sadly the newest update doesn't look good. The coral frags I got (sorry frank) and put on my frag rack are all bleached and not looking well. My montis are losing color again and growing downward. And the canary in a coal mine for me is my largest birdsnest. It has been growing "upward" through all the tough times. Well it finally grew to the level in the tank where all my corals cease to grow upward and only grow sideways. The birdsnest's highest tips are now turning 90 degrees and growing sideways.

The tank has been stable and feed for weeks now...and all looks well except lack of upward growth. It's now my final conclusion that the only culprit that could be causing this SAME phenomena in ALL corals is the light. It is just too intense. I have now reduced it to only 4 bulbs max on at any time (still 2 for dawn dusk, but they go off when the 4 come on). Barring this method my only other hope is to raise the lights a few MORE inches (already 14 inches above water line) in hopes of lowering the PAR yet again.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Vannpytt]

You can't reduce light too fast, and your better of with 0 and upwards, than experimenting with "what is enough" until all your corals are dead.

Please do yourself a favor and do as I suggested a while back. It has worked for me, and I had the exact same problem for a year before doing "dramatic" changes. As long as you measure ammonia and phosphate you should feed dramatically much more and reduce your photo period by "a lot".

• 5 Hour photo period
• Massive SPS feed (Heard good stuff about Reef Pearls) several times a day
• Increase light slowly.

Ohh, and I saw the green algae you have covering your rocks. Most people will say this is due to excess nutrients, however, I can assure you after actually testing this with turning up and down my light I can promote growth of this algae with 0 detectable nutrients. The argument I'm carrying is simple: Tanks with far greater nutrients level don't grow these algae, and not all algae will proliferate under "low nutrients".

The algae also further reduces your corals nutrients, so manual removal is vital. (And no, you won't necessarily grow more algae with increased feeding since you are very low)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19717105&postcount=50

 

[daveonbass]

I wish I had green algae...all I have is cyano. :/

 

[mjaustin22]

Im not sure whats up with your sps, but I'm pretty sure its not your light. If it was, your ricordia would be melting away. I've blamed my lights before, only to find out it was something else.

 

[nivram]

I wish I had green algae...all I have is cyano. :/

Try dosing a bacteria supplement like MB7 or one of the many others out there. I got rid of my cyano after running bio pellets. I had tried several different methods prior with no long term success. I tried running bio pellets and dosing a bacteria for 6 months. That totally eliminated the cyano. Its been about a year and no signs of the cyano.

 

[daveonbass]

Im not sure whats up with your sps, but I'm pretty sure its not your light. If it was, your ricordia would be melting away. I've blamed my lights before, only to find out it was something else.

They do melt...I have a few on the sand bed (yumas) that have all but disappeared, and the Orange ones in the middle are only growing down...the ones that were up by the base of the birdsnest are pale and withered...almost melted.

 

[daveonbass]

To add to that...I have no softies, or LPS that grow beyond the sand bed...and even then they bleach. The only exception is my GSP. But that to is struggling at a certain height in the tank...and the little pieces I've ripped off (weed) and have settled on the sand grow faster than what was on the rock.

So I still feel its the intensity of the light.

 

[Vannpytt]

I wish I had green algae...all I have is cyano. :/

I'm quite sure it's not cyano.



N=0
P=0

Lights are heavy, algae growth stops when I turn lights down.

 

[daveonbass]

Yeah...that looks like cyano to me.
The bubbles give it away. It reacts like cyano...even smells like it when removed. It grows in colors from blackish to maroon, and up to green the higher in the tank...with all three colors showing up in the same patch. If it walks, talks, smells, sounds, and looks like a duck.....(it will probably taste like one too).

 

[Vannpytt]

It is commonly accepted that Cyano won't be affected with low nutrients, but rather when C is in abundance.

I don't really know why I'm trying to convince you

I hope you solve your problem whatever it is.

 

[franklypre]

I don't think it is the lights either, too many folks running those fixtures. I think it's those biopellets, seen alot of threads regarding cyano and ULNS bleachouts. If the coral I gave you is bleached it ain't do to lights. They were what 8" from a 250w with a 12k bulb, they do well under my 400w DE, but on your frag rack in the back they bleach. I think the tank has an overabundance of carbon and nothing to use it on, the disolved organic carbon is too high. Toss a few grams of pappone in there, maybe a couple of cubes of mysis. Feed the hell out of it until you grow GHA. But first do a big WC to get everything right. I've played with removing all the N&P with the resins and it didn't impress me, I tried the ATS which worked OK. At this point I feed like crazy every day I feed 2 cubes of mysis(atleast) and pappone. It seems to be working quite well and my beast skimmer is performing like I think it should, finally.

 

[daveonbass]

I think you are all underestimatint these fixtures. I see this kind of thread all the time about the ATI (pm) being too much light when the fixture is the same length as the tank. Plus frank...you told me you run your lights for only 4 hours. And without a par meter its just not known if your lights are even close rocky lights intensity.

Everything starts looking better when I lessen the time or increase the distance of the lights...or both. My reds come back, and the corals grow "upward" more. How could a over abundance of carbon cause growth to stop only at a certain level of the tank? Yet growth is normal (more) below that point. Also, I don't see how excess carbon can be the culprit, if its not added to the system; that's the purpose of the BPs. Carbon is only utilized on an as needed basis.

 

[franklypre]

I had a dual light cycle, I have done away with it for the main tank, but I ran it 8 hrs a day for a year or two,I do still use it on the frag tank. I have been considering the pellets as a way for me to stop using sugar/vinegar, in many of the threads it states when you start biopellets you may need to increase feedings or your coral will starve. I laughed at this but then did some research on lower nutrient systems and have come to realise that ULNS is unrealistic and can be very problematic. So that being said I researched more about the biopellets and found that they often cause cyano/dino to grow, we try to combat the cyano by not feeding and the corals starve. The access carbon is going to get used up by a bacteria of some sort and cyano is typically the culprit. There is no way you will convince me that the back left corner of your tank has more PAR/light than underneath a 400w halide, or for that matter directly beneath a PAR38. I do agree that the ATI fixture produces alot of PAR, however I find it hard to believe that acclimated corals would bleach and stay bleached due to light. You've tried raising it and you've tried running 4 bulbs to no avail. Time to move on to the next theory, and my guess is the lack of nutrients. I am as confused by this as you are but after looking at several tanks that run the ATI fixtures and don't have bleached corals it's hard for me to think that is the problem. I have dosed carbon for a while now and can honestly say it works, however if there is a steady supply of carbon and no need for it cyano and/or dino will use it up.

 

[franklypre]

http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showthread.php?p=18765960

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/65-tank-of-the-month

Just a few bits of good reading.

 

[daveonbass]

the only nutrients that biopellets effect are the N and P. And the pellets act as the C. BUT, there is no dosing of C...and it is not melting away into the water (display)...it's only in the chamber. So if there is no N or P...then there is no C useage...it just IS the pellet that stays in the reactor. in other words...there is no excess carbon to be used by bacteria. The evidence is that the pellets do not ever have any cyano in or around them or the reactor.
Also the light has been speced at haveing similar par as a 400W Mh. only it's all over the tank...not just at one spot. the par may be high directly under the Mh but it rapidly drops out after you move away from directly under it. My lights have that same par all over the tank...and there is no escaping it...which explains why the cardinals hide all day. (more nocturnal)
Also the Carbon issue does not explain to me why the corals refuse to grow beyond a certain level in the tank. Light would explain that...due to the intensity being lower at and below the growth line...and would explain why above it produces bleaching and below it only growth.
Also I HAVE been feeding...everyday...twice a day...for a month. I have seen improvement for sure, and growth, but not above a certain height in the tank. against my better judgement I will continue to over feed my tank. But I still see this as a purely light related issue. light explains the growth issue and the color issue of the coral. When I got new bulbs is when the problems really started. My super red blood chalice went pink then white, but now that its all the way on the sand...and under the shadow of the big birdsnest...it's actually really red again as well as growing new mouths and new growth. as is your chalice frag. the colors are coming back now that they are completely out of direct light. I just don't see it as being a nutrient issue as much as a light issue if simply moving it out of the light has caused the coral to stop dying and start coloring up and growing again.
But this is really an SPS issue...still...haha. once again I'm faced with a lot of symptoms that point more towards light. And I have only had the lights turned down to 4 bulbs at once for less than a week...so it's way to early to tell if that is enough of a drop off. I may just have to drop the dawn/dusk cycle completely for a while and only run the 4 bulbs for 5-6 hours a day.

time will tell...

by the way was it you that wanted the pink milli frag...?

 

[Moser]

Hi Dave,
I just read your thread.
You may recall I posted on the bio pellet thread when you first had difficulty getting them to reduce your nutrients and didn't feel they worked at all....

I ran 10L bio pellets In my 1000G system for a year and had similar probs with SPS.
I gradually halved my pellet volume, then halved again because I realised my nutrient levels were just too low. I was also heavily feeding coral foods, which were brightening up my corals, until bang, I got cyano. This was prob from cutting the pellet processing, whilst not reducing my input.

I stopped the coral foods, but continued to halve the pellet dose every couple of weeks and everything came back to complete health. I was running about 2L for a while and everything was fine, but I eventually decided to stop them altogether. I continued to monitor my nutrient levels, but they stayed very low and my corals looked great. I'm guessing the large number of corals started to deal with all the nutrient processing.

I have 9x400w halides and 12x T5 tubes over my tank. Cyano returned in small amounts as I was feeding quite heavily, so I added more flow in the back of my tank, more dove and nassarius snails and conches for the sanded and did weekly GFO change out with weekly water change 10% and siphoning. I removed my sand sifting starfish and also added some chaeto in the sump, but it grows very slowly at the mo'.

I think the underlying problem is the amount of pellets you run. A really cheap simple thing you can do is halve your pellet dose and see what happens for a few weeks. If your nitrate doesn't shoot up, halve again.

If phosphates become a problem, you may need to run GFO ( if you don't already).

I know they say you can't overdose on pellets, but trust me, you can!. Just so you know, I was running from the test batch of the first pellets that came to market. I started pellets in my system more than 21/2 years ago, so I have a lot of first hand experience with them.

I also tried running zeo with them, but just couldn't get the dosing right and kept getting algae blooms. These stopped when I quit the zeo dosing and pellets.

I made no major adjustments to the lights at that time, so had pale corals for months that suddenly came back to life with intense lighting.

It has been mentioned already, but the issue is zooxanthellae expulsion due to nutrient starvation, that then can't process whatever light you throw at the coral. Get more nutrients in( ie cut pellet dose). And the zooxantheallae will repopulate the corals and you'll be back on track...

Mo