No tangs

[OrionN]

A super large amount of snails can do the job as well, but I found that the die-off is quite large which by itself can cause problems. I'm not sure if the snails just die by themselves, if they get killed by hermits or if my Regal Angels are responsible...

Snails carry parasitic snails, same family as those infected Giant Clams. If you have these in your tank, they will eventually kill off all your snails. Species that infect Clams is different than those that infect snails but they look the same with naked eyes.
When ever I added snail to the tank, I always inspect them individually. I clean the shells and make sure there are no egg mass on the snails. I got this problem way early in my reefing experience , no problem since.

 

[Moort82]

Any more and we may need a minibus and start a new sub-culture:lolspin:

I call shotgun

I've seen abalone on sale over here but they command a hefty price, they are far cheaper on import lists (cebu catch to order if you have a friendly lfs that needs cuc).

Or you could add a manatee

 

[SecretiveFish]

We had a hair algae outbreak for what seemed to us no discernible reason (0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, running GFO, no change in lighting). As a last ditch effort, I was able to get my hands on a halloween urchin and within 2-3 weeks there was no hair algae to be found... I am still stunned to say the least and am trying to get my hands on another one for another tank now having hair algae problems... Are thosethe urchins you have?

ETA: I realize you are having Ulva issues, but I think our urchin ate all the macro algae in our tank too. We may have gotten lucky though...

 

[jalisco]

The Siporax will compliment an algae turf scrubber and many users say a protein skimmer is good to keep but will start producing less skimmate.

 

[haydn]

It has been almost a year since I posted on this, time for an update on the 'no tangs' tank.

Touching a very large chunk of wood- I think the various algae stages in the tank has been going through are starting to fizzle out and my tank seems to be stabilising. The decision I made in the beginning not to add tangs (or big algae eaters of any sort) has proved to be somewhat challenging. Tangs, and their relatives, I think, graze away much of the algae before we even see it, by the time it is visible and large enough for me to manually remove, it was too late and I was always playing catch-up, especially with a tank the size of mine. Although I had lots of invert grazers (urchins, Mexican turbos, crabs. etc) I could never have enough, they just didn't seem to keep up, maybe they are just not mobile enough, and perhaps they eat only certain types of algae or only when it’s of a certain maturity. Whatever the reason the algae just ran riot. I faced either just letting the tank mature in its own time or bite the bullet and add a tang or four. I decided to wait and besides some of the algae stages looked attractive (the red hair algae and the ulva stages were particularly pretty).

Leaving the tank to do it's own thing has thrown up a few surprises-To test the tank when I first set it up I found a couple of small plating monti frags and a green acro frags in the LFS LR recycling tub both about as big as a thumb nail, despite them getting covered in various algae they have not only survived and have grown, I am ashamed to say nothing to do with my care. The small gorgonian has grown into a tree and I am especially pleased that ‘Keiths’ gorgonian (Keith was a friend who gave me a frag of it over 25 years ago and it has been part of my tanks ever since) has grown considerably and is starting to branch.

I think, at long last it may be time to plan the coral planting................I hope.

 

[Fredfish]

Interesting thread. I am in a similar situation with a largish tank, but not as large as yours. I'm not a huge fan of tangs and keep wondering if I can get by without.

I also happen to like inverts as much as fish and coral.

Did you ever try an algae scrubber?

 

[haydn]

Did you ever try an algae scrubber?

No although my 500ltr sump is packed with chaeto and other algae, interesting though throughout the time none of the 'nuisance' algae ever got a foothold in the sump. I wonder why?

 

[Moort82]

No although my 500ltr sump is packed with chaeto and other algae, interesting though throughout the time none of the 'nuisance' algae ever got a foothold in the sump. I wonder why?

It was probably out competed by the chaeto and caulerpa. If you have really good lighting over the sump the algae in there might be getting a better growing environment than the display. It tends to be poor refugium lighting that causes longterm algae problems in the display as the growth of the macro's you want can't compete.

 

[OrionN]

IMO, if you don't want algae in the DT, you have to have a largish sump/refugium on which you must have really good lighting condition. In situation like this, the sump/refugium grow is better and remove enough nutrient so that algae growth is limited by nutrient and thus does not grow in the DT.
You got to realize that starving algae will also likely starve coral, because zooxanthellae essentially require the same thing as algae.

IMO, what you are trying to do is unobtainable. It is true that increase nutrient will cause excessive algae growth resulting in coral death. We see examples of this in polluted places. However, removal of herbivores will also upset the balance in algae favor. Even in nature, algae will overgrowth corals if herbivore is remove from the reef. We see plenty examples of these in nature. One of the recent event stands out in my memory is the urchin death in the Caribbean in the mid 1980's with result in a lot of coral mortality.

A healthy reef requires large and diverse present of herbivores. If you want to use your hands to substitute for tangs or some other herbivores you are welcome to do it but it is not going to be easy. IMO, you will not be able to starve the algae without starving the corals too.

 

[OrionN]

Here is an article of the Sea Urchin's death and it's effect on coral reef of the Caribbean from the Proceedings from the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/9/4822.full

 

[HBtank]

Not really fair to lump foxface or rabbits with tangs, sweethearts IME, hardy, and actually break up fights.

But, yes, absolute pigs.

And yeah, I love and hate tangs. They somehow always become the drama queens of the tank, whether it’s agggression, worrying if they might be sick, etc..

I find that a diverse range of algae eaters makes for the best tank, so I have them and lots more (all sorts of snails mostly). I like a bristletooth and foxface together, they both graze in different ways, plus brstletooth are mellow compared to something like a powder.

 

[haydn]

IMO, if you don't want algae in the DT, you have to have a largish sump/refugium on which you must have really good lighting condition. In situation like this, the sump/refugium grow is better and remove enough nutrient so that algae growth is limited by nutrient and thus does not grow in the DT

My sump/refugium holds approximately 500ltrs of water, a quarter of my DT capacity. It is lit using red spectrum LED plant lights, also the sump has an open top and is in a south facing conservatory where it gets both direct sunlight and daylight. The Cheato and other culerpas are harvested regularly (half is removed each month) to keep it fresh and growing.

You got to realize that starving algae will also likely starve coral, because zooxanthellae essentially require the same thing as algae.

I am not starving algae, I have 16 anthias, 15 fang blennies, a number of other gobies, 12 urchins, numerous snails and hermit crabs, I feed 3 times per day on a mixture of frozen, pellet and liquid food. My Po4 is barely measurable and my nitrate is less than 5PPM.

IMO, what you are trying to do is unobtainable. It is true that increase nutrient will cause excessive algae growth resulting in coral death. We see examples of this in polluted places. However, removal of herbivores will also upset the balance in algae favor. Even in nature, algae will overgrowth corals if herbivore is remove from the reef. We see plenty examples of these in nature. One of the recent event stands out in my memory is the urchin death in the Caribbean in the mid 1980's with result in a lot of coral mortality.

I have not removed any herbivores, as I said above I have numerous invertebrate herbivores. I have just decided not to stock tangs. As I have also said the algae in the DT has gone through it's cycle and the tank is stabilising without the 'nuisance' algae.

A healthy reef requires large and diverse present of herbivores. If you want to use your hands to substitute for tangs or some other herbivores you are welcome to do it but it is not going to be easy. IMO, you will not be able to starve the algae without starving the corals too.

Agreed but does it specifically need tangs, if tanks did need them then any tank too small to hold a tang would not be viable, which it clearly is not. I am not trying to starve the algae, I am trying to run a system without tangs and although it has taken more time to stabilise than it would had I added tangs. I am now starting to get a stable, balanced system where the 'nuisance' algae is diminishing. and hopefully will be replaced by calcareous and symbiotic algae. Which IMO suggests I can run a successful tank without tangs.

 

[Fredfish]

No although my 500ltr sump is packed with chaeto and other algae, interesting though throughout the time none of the 'nuisance' algae ever got a foothold in the sump. I wonder why?

Different algae thrive in different conditions. I suspect your macro algae is preferentially taking up nutrients in the sump because the conditions there favour it.

Since the water is the same as in the display it must be related to flow or lighting. It is also possible that there is some chemical warfare going on between the two types of algea

 

[OrionN]

To each his own. If you able to keep your tank without tangs and not mind getting your hands in the tank, all the power to you. I love my tangs. I have my refugium full of algae too, very bright light. I often take a rock full of algae bring it DT and my tangs just finish it in a day or two.
They love it.

 

[haydn]

Sorry I don't understand, why should I need to put my hands in the tank any more than you?

As for the choice of fish that is down to you. I have been keeping marine tanks for some 48 years, I have kept a fair cross section of fish and in my experience, I have found the majority of my issues were tang related. Whether that was PB aggression killing any new fish I put in, a group of 5 yellow tangs after living together for 6 years and suddenly killing each other (this happened twice so I wasn't unlucky), an Emperor tang coming out in white spots whenever I added anything to my tank, a lovely little Chevron growing to a 10" fish in 2 years, I could go on.

 

[HBtank]

Interestingly, just after this thread my adult blue eyed (two spot) tang decided to become a jerk and was trying to corner/whip my Anthia. He is now at the LFS.

I think I am done with tangs in my sized tank, love my foxface though.

 

[haydn]

Interestingly, just after this thread my adult blue eyed (two spot) tang decided to become a jerk and was trying to corner/whip my Anthia. He is now at the LFS.

I hope you're not blaming this thread and me for this:lolspin:

I think I am done with tangs in my sized tank, love my foxface though.

I also like foxfaces great characters but get too big, dominant and messy.