no water changes, no nitrate?

[_shorty_]

..... here is a chart showing the various nutrient export methods we use and which nutrients they go after. take special note of the arrow directions and the number of arrows going into and out of the substrate and algae (ATS's/Chaeto). note which methods make the most use of the arrows. ....

First off, thank you for posting all that info. That is very helpful - and probably explains some of the reason I still see cyano despite the use of my ATS. I don't know enough to argue one way or the other with any of this.. So let me clarify that this is more a question than a statement which will probably only show my lack of understanding of this so far...

In the diagram - arrows go in exchange from algae to both disolved organic and inorganic phosphates and back to the algae. It seems it would be the algae either dying, or being eaten that puts the arrows back to 'animals' or to the disolved inorganic/organic phosphates.

Won't an ATS change this flow cycle? You are removing the algae from the system before it puts anything back into the system assuming your diligent and timely with your ATS cleaning.

So - with the advancements in the ATS experimentation over the past couple years in trying to optimize size of scrubber vs how much nutrients are entering the system (aka food in), wouldn't it theoretically be possible to remove more disolved organic and inorganic phosphates via that algae export, than what is entering the system?

It doesn't change the fact that the phosphates and detritus are still being generated, precipitated, and settled into the sand bed - but wouldn't it at least drastically reduce the 'sponge' affect of the system?

All that said/asked - I believe I've been coming to the consinsus in my own mind over the past few months that I agree with what many are saying here, that the practice of mutliple techniques is best to attack this cycle from all angles.

Through that (the use of many techniques) it seems water changes might be able to be drastically reduced, with the exception of stirring up detritus out of the sandbed and syphoning that crud out from time to time.

Feedback is appreciated... I'm just kind of thinking 'outloud'. This was the first I've been exposed to this detail of the phosphorus cycle - so thanks again.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

so im on another forum where a member says he does a 10% wc every six months and has zero nitrates and phosphates. he has fish and corals in his tank, im not sure about size of tank, live rock, sand bed, or really anything else about his tank.

but im confused on how this works. i have around 600-700lbs of rock, dsb, fuge, not many fish, and a very big powerful skimmer. i still have nitrates, and if i didnt run GFO i would probably have phosphates.

i dont intend on not doing my weekly water changes but i am very curious to how he can go so long and not have nitrate.

To keep nitrates in check you just need a good export method. A skimmer by itself isn't really a home run. You need a good consistent carbon source added to your system so that bacteria can multiply and consume your nitrate at the levels required to maintain 0-2ppm nitrate. With the added bacteria, your skimmer can and will export noticeably more skimate, which is the extra bacteria you have indirectly introduced. It's as simple as that. Bio-pellets and skimmer are my method, Randy Holmes doses vinegar or vodka with a skimmer, as do many others. An ATS and algae removal/export is another effective nitrate export method. If you are dosing a carbon source properly, you can get to and maintain the ideal 0-2ppm nitrate level easily. I'm sure the member you reference uses one of these export methods.

That said, keep up those consistent water changes but for the other reasons why water changes are necessary, such as maintaining your mineral levels in balance.

 

[SantaMonica]

remove more disolved organic and inorganic phosphates via that algae export,

You might mean add more dissolved phosphates, not remove them. Algae eats inorganic phosphate (PO4), but does not eat organic phosphates (food). Instead, algae adds DOC's to the system, in the form of Vitamin C, Amino Acids, Proteins, Carbs, etc., i.e., the same stuff that is found in natural waters.

 

[110galreef]

Your only means of export is a minimally producing skimmer and almost non existent water changes. Everything looks great but where does all the phosphate go? I would submit that, without question, your DSB will crash in the not so distant future, taking the health of your tank with it....

You will get further down the road than the guy with no DSB, or the guy with the same bioload stuffed into a 100 gallon tank, but the DSB is not magic and is not a limitless phosphate sink.

Look at it this way:
You can buld a bigger litter box and layer the litter deeper, but if you don't scoop it often enough, the cat poop will eventually start to stink...

I have no DSB....only a shallow sand bed. ~ 50# total in the entire system.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

You might mean add more dissolved phosphates, not remove them. Algae eats inorganic phosphate (PO4), but does not eat organic phosphates (food). Instead, algae adds DOC's to the system, in the form of Vitamin C, Amino Acids, Proteins, Carbs, etc., i.e., the same stuff that is found in natural waters.

which all contain phosphates.

this is why algae is phosphate leaky. everyone is so concerned about inorganic phosphates (rightfully so), but they are only a very easy to test for form of phosphates. they do not even come close to giving us an accurate idea of the true level of phosphates in our systems. by the time we get any real values with our test kits the total phosphates in the system are way into eutrophic levels.

G~

 

[SantaMonica]

No, I don't believe you'll find phosphorus in any of those

 

[Dapg8gt]

Question on maintaining DSB.. I have a semi deep sand bed on my 45 gal sumpless 3-4" give or take that is the original sand from close to 13 years ago.. While no3. & p04 are detectable they are not too bad with excessive algae or anything like that.The tank is pretty much been on auto pilot since year 2 with bi weekly water changes 10%..I dont have a sump and run a skimmer rated for over double the volume of my tank.. Also have a HOB filter to run carbon/GFO and a sponge. I do carbon dose.

My question is when removing and replacing sections of sand it's fine to just use thoroughly rinsed dry sand right? I dont really think the "Live stuff" is really live Sealed in a bag on a shelf for months on end..

And should I even attempt to do it being I don't have an issue at year 12? With the formula mentioned above my tank should have crashed 8-9 years ago LOL.. I do sometimes syphon the sand bed not too deep In fear of releasing some H2s or whatever is fermenting down there (rarely) .. I have a bunch of nassarius snails and a goby that keeps it pretty stirred as is.

Thanks in advance.. This was a great read and got me thinking to add a large RDSB to my 150 build to add another tool for export that I might have overlooked if it wasn for this thread. Thanks again guys.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

My question is when removing and replacing sections of sand it's fine to just use thoroughly rinsed dry sand right? I dont really think the "Live stuff" is really live Sealed in a bag on a shelf for months on end..

And should I even attempt to do it being I don't have an issue at year 12?

Glad to hear you have had such great success for so many years with your DSB. You know the old saying, if is isn't broke, don't fix it.

You don't have to replace sections of your sand ever in cases where you have wrasse that are continuously burying into the sand and gradually stirring it up for you. Of course, that is a DSB in a display tank where you have wrasse working for you. Not sure if your DSB gets a good constant stirring on its own already but if it does, you are in better shape than you thought.

As far as live vs dry sand, the dry is cheaper and just as good - perhaps even better. You have more life in your surrounding DSB already.

 

[brizhound]

I have a question. I am setting up a new tank. It's a 225 and will be SPS dominate. I plan on this being my setup for a long time to come. Based on what I am reading should I run bb? Also if I choose to run a RDSB how big will it have to be? I am planning on running a fuge but the dimensions are only 24x24x18 tall, I can run a DSB there up to 10 inches if I wanted. Will this even make a difference being so small compared to the tank valume or should there be NO sand at all?
Sorry for the multiple questions...

 

[jimmy frag]

they are either lying, or they use an algae turf scrubber.

lololololol really !

 

[Dapg8gt]

Glad to hear you have had such great success for so many years with your DSB. You know the old saying, if is isn't broke, don't fix it.

You don't have to replace sections of your sand ever in cases where you have wrasse that are continuously burying into the sand and gradually stirring it up for you. Of course, that is a DSB in a display tank where you have wrasse working for you. Not sure if your DSB gets a good constant stirring on its own already but if it does, you are in better shape than you thought.

As far as live vs dry sand, the dry is cheaper and just as good - perhaps even better. You have more life in your surrounding DSB already.

Thanks for the response. I don't have any wrasses that burrow only the snails and a diamond goby.. I just have to think that deeper than the first few inches has to be some funky stuff ha ha .. I just don't want to have to start a post on old tank syndrome and kinda want to get a head start on replacing the sand slowly.

I have to think the sand will or is an issue due to when I switched carbon sources (nopox to vinegar then vodka) I had an explosion of cyano on the sand only that I still am battling a little bit. I havent had cyano in like 5 years but Returning to no-pox the last few weeks has pretty much curbed the cyano along with aggressive removal and more frequent water changes. Its still there but nowhere near reproducing the way it was.

I'm thinking it's prob releasing bound up P04 causing the cyano to be there and the carbon (vodka especially)was like a all you can eat feeding frenzy on top of the sand already releasing bound up nutrients.. That's my theory LoL that's prob wrong but I like it LOL.. Again great thread guys an thanks for the advice reefkeeper64.I agree if it ain't broke don't fix it but with my sumpless against the grain older reef it's better to be safer than sorry. Especially with my luck LOL.tanks prob at home crashing as I write this..

 

[Dexters Reef]

My 75g has been running great for around 10 months now, 8 fish and 0 nitrates and less than .03 phosphates. SPS and LPS are growing rapidly, colors are great, everything is doing well. I dont use any equipment besides my skimmer, dosing pumps for ca and alk, and a 20g sump / refugium with cheato, some lr, a 3" sand bed (need to add a little more). I do a small 5g water change once every month or two, and add 1g of rodi daily.

A big help in keeping the sandbed bright white was the addition of a MP40 in January. This keeps the top of my sandbed stirred and the undertow it created pulls water out from behind my rockwork. It turned my boring flat sandbed into a fluid one with peaks and valleys. It looks much more natural now, and everything has settled and I dont have any sandstorms with my very fine sand. At peak times I have around 4500 gph of flow from my mp40 at about 90% and a koralia 1400 and my return, giving me a turnover rate of 60x. I plan to replace the koralia with a second mp40 soon.

As far as maintaining it, I have cleaned all accessible areas of my sandbed twice so far, and dont think this is a big deal and would reccomend othes do the same. I wonder if I should do it more often or not. At this rate it gets a good cleaning 2-3 times a year, plus has the top 1" being stirred, which I think should prevent a buildup and crash down the line.

 

[flyingpolarbear]

My 75g has been running great for around 10 months now, 8 fish and 0 nitrates and less than .03 phosphates. SPS and LPS are growing rapidly, colors are great, everything is doing well.

It's funny I had the exact same glowing fuzzy feeling with my 75g "nothing can go wrong" until 2 or 3 years later. The first couple years it's relatively easy to maintain perfect conditions, then stuff builds up to knock the system out of balance, but you don't want to tear down the whole tank and harm some of the well established creatures. Probably the biggest challenge in this hobby is old tank syndrome. Now my tank, which has a deep sand bed, is 13 years old. It's been through several crashes over the years and I've learned a lot. My best advice is to use strong wave motion (Ecotechs are great) to export nutrients, keep the skimmer well adjusted, and harness the power of bacteria (carbon sources like Zeostart, polymers etc.) I'm setting up an ozone system soon. Automating the equipment, making it bulletproof, and building in backup systems helps a lot, because most of my crashes were caused by large chemistry changes during equipment failure or emergency maintenance. After a while, you start to love bacteria because they play a large role in bringing the tank back in beautiful shape.

 

[Dexters Reef]

I do also have a 46g reef thats almost 7 years old, with a dsb that has never crashed, so this isn't my first attempt at this. I do know what you mean with stuff building up, and have learned to buy better equipment. My 46g has a canister filter and prizm skimmer...ugh after a few years it became a pita to keep levels down, but it never crashed and caused any problems.

I'm hoping with my 75, that the sump, ecosmart pump (soon to be 2), dosing pumps and oversized skimmer help keep things stable long term, in addition to my sandbed cleaning 2-3x a year. I do also run 3 bags of chemipure elite (enough for a tank around 125g), which is carbon and gfo.

 

[FlyPenFly]

So how deep of a sand bed are we talking about here?

How do you actually clean the sand without sucking up the top layer out?

 

[Dexters Reef]

4-5" depending on the area

I use a gravel vacuum with the hose kinked...I do end up still sucking some sand out, but over time if it gets to low I will add more.

I put the vacuum in one spot and let it go all the way to the bottom of the sandbed till it hits the glass, then kink the hose and slowly lift the vacuum out. It creates a hole in the sand and while keeping the hose kinked I slowly lift it and let the sand fall out and refill the hole. I repeat this over and over until I hit every accessible area. My bucket is filled with dark silty water and some sand when Im done.

 

[Michigan Mike]

Maybe I said something like that. 29g, fluval 205, 300gph hob filter. Koralia 550 & 750.
I took my canister filter offline today & checked nitrates, still 0.
No skimmer, sump etc.
Kalk, soda, Epsom salts for dosing.
I had 2 clowns & 1 clown went carpet surfing a month or so ago but it really depends on your setup & bio-load. If I can go a year with 0 nitrates anyone can. If they have small fish, feed little, & have lots of live rock. I've never used anything but GFO & chemipure elite.
I'm talking about my avatar if you are wondering.
Q&A?

 

[SantaMonica]

If I can go a year with 0 nitrates anyone can.

Very true. Not hard at all, even with heavy feeding, no water changes, and no skimmer.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

so im on another forum where a member says he does a 10% wc every six months and has zero nitrates and phosphates. he has fish and corals in his tank, im not sure about size of tank, live rock, sand bed, or really anything else about his tank.

but im confused on how this works. i have around 600-700lbs of rock, dsb, fuge, not many fish, and a very big powerful skimmer. i still have nitrates, and if i didnt run GFO i would probably have phosphates.

i dont intend on not doing my weekly water changes but i am very curious to how he can go so long and not have nitrate.

i had one point where i had thought i had zero nitrate, but i had just not shook the API test kits well, or at all.

They are either lying, or they use an algae turf scrubber.

I've been running a 140g reef tank for 3+ years and done hardly any PWCs, have been running one version or another of a scrubber (only filtration) and the latest version for 6+ months and N=0 (Salifert) and P<0.02 (Hanna). Did one 20% PWC in November at the 2 year point from a tank switch.

Previous tank cracked, so contents were moved in May 2011, then moved back to (new) tank in Nov 2011, so both of those instances required about a 40% PWC, but other than that, that's all the water I've changed in well over 2 years.

 

[rjd0521]

i dont intend on not doing my weekly water changes but i am very curious to how he can go so long and not have nitrate.

I used to have issues with nitrate 80ppm+ and water changes did not help at all and to me was a waste of money to accomplish next to nothing so I ended up getting a sulfur Denitrator. Now my nitrate is constantly at 0ppm and goes up to 2ppm on a heavy feeding day. Last water change was close to a year ago. Trace elements comes from ESV B-ionic.