Noisey Sump !

[fltekdiver]

I have a 60 gallon cube on a 30" Stand. I can't do a " Herbie " because theirs not enough room under the stand to place a gate valve.

I've tried putting the drain under water into a sock, above water, and I'm getting a ton of noise

I video taped under the stand so you could see the plumbing

I'm thinking of cutting the vertical 1" plumbing line on the drain, and adding a
TEE at the part where it 90's down into the sump

Would that help?

It's REALLY loud, you can hear it all the way on the other part of the house

Here's the video of the drain going into the sump, I miss my Herbie on my 180!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR27TiK6E-g&list=UU9rW-dOqFNrKEs7kBWJQudA

 

[mcgyvr]

just extend it so its underwater just slightly.

 

[fltekdiver]

I tried that, but had it 2"-3" under water

How much like a 1/2" ?

 

[mcgyvr]

I tried that, but had it 2"-3" under water

How much like a 1/2" ?

yes just slightly under water..
but
There are only a few ways to quiet a noise issue with a bad overflow setup.. I didn't watch much of the video but it seemed like part of the noise was it splashing into the water.. If having the outlet under water didn't help with the noise.. (can't see how it didn't cut some down)..Just put it slightly under and try that.. Then of course its also noise from the water going down the inlet of the overflow sucking air with it..

So now you will need to throttle down the return pump in one way or another to slow the flow through the overflow..

Its really just a downhill spiral for you now. :worried:

 

[fltekdiver]

I don't know what your talking about "Downhill spiral " . It's plumbing, I can redo it 100 times if needed

It's not a " Bad " overflow setup. First I'm using the mega overflow kit in the weir. I have the water level in the weir 1/2" below my DT water so I'm not getting any waterfall noises in the weir

I'm using a Jeabo return pump 3000 GPH and the controller is set at half. Theirs no reason to throttle back the return pump and more, as I still need flow through the refugium and skimmer

Theirs a few ways I can replumb it, reverse durso, Tee it at the 90 into the sump, etc

I'd like to hear from someone as I know I'm not the only one using a durso stand pipe , which by design is not a siphon

 

[uncleof6]

I don't know what your talking about "Downhill spiral " . It's plumbing, I can redo it 100 times if needed

It's not a " Bad " overflow setup. First I'm using the mega overflow kit in the weir. I have the water level in the weir 1/2" below my DT water so I'm not getting any waterfall noises in the weir

I'm using a Jeabo return pump 3000 GPH and the controller is set at half. Theirs no reason to throttle back the return pump and more, as I still need flow through the refugium and skimmer

Theirs a few ways I can replumb it, reverse durso, Tee it at the 90 into the sump, etc

I'd like to hear from someone as I know I'm not the only one using a durso stand pipe , which by design is not a siphon

Ok, seems mcgyver could not make you happy, so I doubt what I have to say will make you any happier Let's dig in ...shall we?

First let's take a look at your flow rate. You have a 3000gph pump on a 60 gallon tank? No, a JEBAO DC-3000 pumps 3000L/h or 800gph @ 0' of head height. Now that discrepency and impossibility is out of the way (no way there is over a a few hundred gph flowing in the video... )...

I don't know what size your 'mega-flow' durso is, but I imagine it is sitting on a 1" bulkhead, considering you ran 1" plumbing to the sump. A 1.5" durso, will get you to ~ 350gph silently and relatively bubble free, but not on a 1" bulkhead with 1" plumbing, with 2 90's and a horizontal run. Way too small a pipe size, and way too much turbulence after the water hits the bulkhead. 1.5" bulkhead, 1.5" pipe, 45's instead of 90's, and no horizontal run, you would be cooking with gas...as it is you may get ~50gph maybe a bit more(pipe < 1/4 full of water) without any problems. This is due to the physics of the open channel or 'Durso.'

The way the plumbing enters the sump, may be 'as intended' but it is not at all intuitive. The sump is too tall, forcing the use of 90's and a horizontal run. None of which is helpful at all in the noise department when dealing with a 'durso.'

What needs to happen is the horizontal run needs to be angled down. This may not allow the plumbing to enter the sump where it does now. But then you have a totally useless union sitting on top of the sump, so removing that and you may be able to 45 into the sump, if not right there, at the other end of the that section that does not have a top on it.
Once you get into the sump in a reasonable fashion, extend the line under the water level no more than an inch. (The sock can go away too, there is no practical purpose for mechanical filtration in a marine system, as what we are concerned with cannot be removed by mechanical filtration.)

At this point the only noise you will get is due to the turbulence caused by the durso being run past its laminar limitations. So, reduce the flow rate, till the noise stops. This is the only real solution to the problem; everything else is just gimmicks, and you will still have to reduce the flow rate. You can't beat the physics. Simply put, durso drains are never quite silent, never quite stable, unless they are kept within their laminar flow limitation which is the pipe < 1/4 full of water.

On the other hand, if you want to run this tank where it should be running ~600gph, you will absolutely have to convert to a siphon system. Durso's will not quietly handle much more than 350gph as stated above, and subject to the conditions above. There is defininately room under that tank for a gate valve, you just have to abandon the bulkhead in the top of the sump, which you should do anyway, to get the drain angled down.

Well, you may not have a 'bad' overflow setup, but it is certainly not a good overflow setup...considering it is driving you up the wall, is it? The only fix is to convert to a siphon system, if you want to maintain your current flow rate, and mandatory if you want to increase the flow rate.

I messed with durso drains, and variations thereof, long after I switched to siphon systems. To make a long story short, they are fine for smallish low flow fresh water systems, but they aren't much good for anything over a 30 - 40 gallon marine system, if that.

 

[mcgyvr]

^^^ enter the downhill spiral ... we've been waiting for you.. ha ha
I just don't have the patience to write all that..

 

[fltekdiver]

Ok thanks for explaining it in more detail.

So my options are:

1 : Remove the sock and union/bulk head on the sump. Start with DYI 1" Durso, going into 1" bulkhead in tank, 45 down to sump, 45 into sump, no sock

2: ( Herbie ) Remove all the plumbing and sump and start all over. In the weir their is a 3/4 bulk head and a 1" bulkhead. Use the 3/4" for the siphon. Under the tank 90 then vertical to another 90 down onto a 3/4" Gate valve for Herbie. Exit the Herbie underwater 2"-3" .
The 1" Bulkhead left over in the weir would be the emergency drain, drops right into the sump

The return is 3/4" which would go back behind the tank, and up and over the back

All this would take at least a few hours to plumb into the tank. So I'll have to run a powerhead and bubbler in the tank like as if it were a power outtage

 

[uncleof6]

Ok thanks for explaining it in more detail.

So my options are:

1 : Remove the sock and union/bulk head on the sump. Start with DYI 1" Durso, going into 1" bulkhead in tank, 45 down to sump, 45 into sump, no sock

2: ( Herbie ) Remove all the plumbing and sump and start all over. In the weir their is a 3/4 bulk head and a 1" bulkhead. Use the 3/4" for the siphon. Under the tank 90 then vertical to another 90 down onto a 3/4" Gate valve for Herbie. Exit the Herbie underwater 2"-3" .
The 1" Bulkhead left over in the weir would be the emergency drain, drops right into the sump

The return is 3/4" which would go back behind the tank, and up and over the back

All this would take at least a few hours to plumb into the tank. So I'll have to run a powerhead and bubbler in the tank like as if it were a power outtage

1) 1" durso is too small, and useless. 1.5" pipe for the durso, and 1.5" pipe below the bulkhead, it will help a little but will not perform as a 1.5" all the way setup. Put it on the 1" bulkhead, not the 3/4" bulkhead.

2) 1" pipe for both drain lines, above and below the bulkhead. 3/4" is too small, for marine system use, and is too easy to plug up. The 3/4" bulkhead is the bottle neck, but all that 3/4" pipe will cause too much friciton loss. Do not run the drain line using 90's. Use 45's, keep the drain line angled down. 1" gate valve...the drainline outlet no more than 1" below the water line in the sump.

The Jebao DC-3000 has a 1" outlet. Do not use 3/4" pipe for the return line. Again, the friction losses will be excessive. The outlet size of the pump does not determine the size of the return plumbing, so you will want to upsize the return line to at least 1.25", to avoid excessive friction losses. For either of the setups above, do not use the bulkhead in the overflow for the return line. Run the return line up over the back of the tank.

 

[fftfk]

Im not sure about this but could a gate valve be put of the vertical portion of the pipe above the sump union and elbow? Or do gate valve's have to be run vertically?

 

[uncleof6]

Im not sure about this but could a gate valve be put of the vertical portion of the pipe above the sump union and elbow? Or do gate valve's have to be run vertically?

Gate valves *should* be run vertically, to prevent debris from getting in the seal channel, and preventing a good seal. However, there is not enough room to stuff it on top of that sump in a vertical position. It can be placed at a 45° angle, if the OP does the plumbing in a 'better' fashion than at present.

 

[fltekdiver]

Ok your right, it's a Jeabo DC6000 return pump, don't know why I was thinking it was a DC3000. I have it running at half the speed right now

So I'm going to make both lines, above and below the bulks heads 1", doing a siphon.

Main drain will be 1" standpipe, going through 1" bulk head, 45 into sump. On the 45 line I'll add a gate valve above the sump, close to the sump. Then 45 into the sump, no sock, 1" below the water it will exit

The emergency drain will be 1" , no restrictions and drop straight into the sump

The return will be 1-1/4" up over the back, with a bushing at the top of the tank, to drop from 1-1/4" to 3/4" for the dual loc line for flow

Sound right?

 

[uncleof6]

Not exactly...the main siphon 1" pipe, on the 3/4" bulkhead, the second dry emergency, on the 1" bulkhead, 1" pipe. your flow capacity will be < 937gph, due to the 3/4" bulkhead (reef ready tanks are not reef-ready, the tank manufacturers do have a clue, but they don't care as long as folks keep buying the stuff) For the DC-6000 you want a 1.5" return line...and don't waste your time with loc-line, if anything is useless it is loc-line, it only creates more friction loss that in turn kills the flow; as for water dispersion, they fail miserably as do most dual outlet returns. This is the real purpose of power heads. Don't reduce the size of the return line.

 

[fltekdiver]

Ok perfect, I just ordered the 1" slip/slip gate valve

What should I do, drop the 1.5" return line to 1" and keep it single going over the top?

I can't run a 1.5" return line into the tank, I think that would look funny

 

[uncleof6]

Ok perfect, I just ordered the 1" slip/slip gate valve

What should I do, drop the 1.5" return line to 1" and keep it single going over the top?

I can't run a 1.5" return line into the tank, I think that would look funny

Look funny? Are you saying my tanks look funny? HUH!?!?! LOL, why not, paint it black and no one will notice it. Aesthetics runs second fiddle to function of the life support system. It is called "stage effect" and what it does is make "black" objects disappear when there is a brighter foreground in front of it....reducing to 1" will kill your flow...

 

[fltekdiver]

Wow, 1.5" return into a 60 gallon rimless tank? I thought the reason for dropping the pipe at the last part of the output was to create more pressure?

Their will be " flow " coming out of a 1.5" pipe?
Paint the pipe black in the water , or you mean paint everything to the part where the pvc goes into the water

My last 180, I bought black pvc pipe to drop into the tank, you couldn't see it even if you looked heard enough, it blended right in

Thanks for your help

I just ordered everything, 1" gate valve, 1" strainer for the stand pipe, etc

 

[uncleof6]

Wow, 1.5" return into a 60 gallon rimless tank? I thought the reason for dropping the pipe at the last part of the output was to create more pressure?

Pressure is an ambiguous term. It can have multiple meanings depending on the context pump fed, gravity fed... High pressure = low flow; Low pressure = high flow. What we want is high flow, not high pressure. Pressure creates friction loss.

Their will be " flow " coming out of a 1.5" pipe?
Paint the pipe black in the water , or you mean paint everything to the part where the pvc goes into the water

All else being equal, there will be more flow coming out of a 1.5" pipe, than a 1" pipe. What you will see is a reduction in velocity, hence a decrease in pressure, hence a reduction in friction loss, (decrease in total dynamic head) and an increase in flow from the pump. This relates directly to centrifugal pumps, and it can be applied to the pump curve. Pressure is a function of the cross sectional area and the velocity of the fluid...it is not quite that simple but close enough...

Krylon Fusion is considered to be reef safe, and since it is formulated for plastics, it should not be a problem for the tank, and won't peel off.

My last 180, I bought black pvc pipe to drop into the tank, you couldn't see it even if you looked heard enough, it blended right in

Thanks for your help

I just ordered everything, 1" gate valve, 1" strainer for the stand pipe, etc

Yep, "stage effect."