Nori and Phosphates

[ChadRaay86]

I've been having phosphate troubles for a while now and I've tracked it back to my feeding habits. I have a number of large tangs that love Nori. I used to feed 1-2 3x8 sheets of Nori every day. I have cut back substantially, but I still worry that my phosphates are being affected by this use of Nori.

In doing preliminary research on the topic of Nori and phosphates, I found a conversation regarding the difference between Macro and Nori, with Macro being far better for the fish and far lower in phosphates. I found Julian Sprung's two little fishies algae stuff and was wondering if this is the way to go? I'm open to suggestions, but for what I pay for Nori now, it's not too bad of a price jump to go with sprung's stuff. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to a good Nori replacement?

I'm honestly a bit worried because my Naso that will only eat Nori or live brine and I think I'm doing him a disservice nutritionally.

Also, looking for suggestions on a low phosphate pellet/flake food to be a partial replacement for the mysis and rods food I feed at the moment, purely due to phosphate worries.

 

[aguila88psi]

Do you have a refugium?
What are your calcium and alk levels?
Do you carbon dose?

 

[Jerzey]

just feed little pieces more often instead of leaving giant sheets in constantly..... requires a little more effort on your part but your tangs will still benefit just as much and you'll be limiting the nori pieces decaying... plus they'll pick more at your LR... i've wondered about the effects of uneaten nori on water quality for a while myself

 

[ChadRaay86]

I think it has got to be the food, partly the flow and partly not using filter socks constantly. Everything else in my tank is set. I run biopellets (a small amount), Calcium at 450, Alk at 8.5 (dropped a little today because of LaCl use) as well as filter socks, a Refugium with a bunch of Chaeto, Phosguard, LaCL occasionally and a HUGE skimmer.

I'm dropping a couple MP-60s in there tomorrow (to go with my new MP-40s), so my flow will be taken care of

I might resort to BB, but I'd like to figure out which food is adding so much phosphate. I've cut back my Rods food and Nori feedings and seen a little improvement, but I'm still reading .16+ on phosphates. Goal is to not have to use much GFO at all, but to not keep the tank too clean (aka Ultra low nutrient). I'm thinking of making a change in Nori to the two fishies stuff, because I do need to feed my tangs a bunch of it (they're all pigs).

 

[ChadRaay86]

just feed little pieces more often instead of leaving giant sheets in constantly..... requires a little more effort on your part but your tangs will still benefit just as much and you'll be limiting the nori pieces decaying... plus they'll pick more at your LR... i've wondered about the effects of uneaten nori on water quality for a while myself

I actually started this tonight I soaked a bunch of small strips in tank water and dumped that water out. It worked well because there was a lot less floating around after and my Naso had no chance to attack me while I was putting it on a clip

 

[aguila88psi]

Try rowaphos, its way better then gfo. Also add gutter guard to hold the nori onto the clip, it'll keep it from floating in your tank.

I think your rocks may still be leaching phosphates, that's where I would look.

 

[ChadRaay86]

Try rowaphos, its way better then gfo. Also add gutter guard to hold the nori onto the clip, it'll keep it from floating in your tank.

I think your rocks may still be leaching phosphates, that's where I would look.

I pulled out an acid washed 60% of my live rock last week, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore It might still be in my sand, but I stirred it up pretty good when I removed the rock.

I use phosguard, which is the alumunium based phosphate removing media. It works well and won't leach it out afterwards. I used ROWA for a while in the past, but with close to 350 gallons of water it can get expensive and only lasts for a week or so within my system at least. I'd really like to stop or at least slow my use of a bandaid like GFO, Phosguard, ROWA, etc. and I think its possible by finding the right food/feeding schedule, upping my flow and doing daily filter sock changes (which are a pain).

My phosphates after I added the new rock were .46 one day after, .35 two days after and today when I measured they were .31. If it keeps coming down (which it better or BB is happening) then I might have cured my residual phosphate issued and I'll only have to worry about what I add to the tank in the way of food, RO and salt mix

 

[Jerzey]

I actually started this tonight I soaked a bunch of small strips in tank water and dumped that water out. It worked well because there was a lot less floating around after and my Naso had no chance to attack me while I was putting it on a clip

Hahaha...always startles me when my fish attack

 

[installman]

Hahaha...always startles me when my fish attack

My kids laugh at me every time i get bit by the maroon clown.

 

[ichthyman]

In doing preliminary research on the topic of Nori and phosphates, I found a conversation regarding the difference between Macro and Nori, with Macro being far better for the fish and far lower in phosphates. I found Julian Sprung's two little fishies algae stuff and was wondering if this is the way to go?

Live or dead, you're still importing C, N or P to the system. The only difference is between the speed in which the plant materials decompose and release their stored nutrients back into the system. Dead sources break down faster than their live counter parts and thus the incorporated elements are liberated more quickly. It is bogus marketing hoopla to promote that a name-brand vendor's Porphyra sp. algae, Nori, has a significantly different nutrient content than what is found in "generic" products. Spurng, Dr.G or etc do not have a contract with God to make their algae "special". The real differences in Nori products are related to location, texture, color, thickness and aroma. What is typically made available to the aquarium hobby is the lowest grade Nori possible, C or D.

If you're truly tired of the band-aid approach start with maximizing the system's daily ability to export nutrients. :deadhorse:

 

[Jerzey]

"If you're truly tired of the band-aid approach start with maximizing the system's daily ability to export nutrients.

That's the name of the game... To find that line where we can feed our live stock and get then fat and growing yet not upsetting the balance of exporting more nutrients then were putting in....but at times we all tip the scale every now and then

 

[ChadRaay86]

Live or dead, you're still importing C, N or P to the system. The only difference is between the speed in which the plant materials decompose and release their stored nutrients back into the system. Dead sources break down faster than their live counter parts and thus the incorporated elements are liberated more quickly. It is bogus marketing hoopla to promote that a name-brand vendor's Porphyra sp. algae, Nori, has a significantly different nutrient content than what is found in "generic" products. Spurng, Dr.G or etc do not have a contract with God to make their algae "special". The real differences in Nori products are related to location, texture, color, thickness and aroma. What is typically made available to the aquarium hobby is the lowest grade Nori possible, C or D.

If you're truly tired of the band-aid approach start with maximizing the system's daily ability to export nutrients. :deadhorse:

Thats what I was looking for, haha. Now that you mention it, we might have already had this conversation I'll stay with what I'm using, although I do think its a good idea to do the strip thing and rinse it out of the tank first. Softened Up, it gets eaten faster and "possibly" removes some of the phosphates.

I have maximized my ability to export nutrients, I just want to avoid shooting myself in the foot by feeding something that is way to high in phosphates. On a separate note, the two MP-40s I have in my tank right now (about to add two 60s to the mix), pull more crap up and out of the tank than those WP-40s ever did. Its amazing how fast my filter socks clog now, when compared to my old layout.

Beyond more flow, more regular filter sock changes, less feeding, over skimming, weekly water changes and a refugium I'm not really sure how I can export more nutrients? Always up for suggestions from the fish nazi though :deadhorse:

 

[ichthyman]

the flow and partly not using filter socks constantly.

Consistent use with as needed, daily IMO, changes will export more nutrients and solve the issue. Its pretty simple, mechanic filtration in the form of small micron-mesh filter socks is most efficient and cost effective tool in dealing with N and P compounds. However, you've got to do the work of changing the material else they're about useless.

 

[ChadRaay86]

Yep. Hammer right on the nail there. Just got to keep up with it

 

[Jerzey]

Consistent use with as needed, daily IMO, changes will export more nutrients and solve the issue. Its pretty simple, mechanic filtration in the form of small micron-mesh filter socks is most efficient and cost effective tool in dealing with N and P compounds. However, you've got to do the work of changing the material else they're about useless.

i couldn't agree more...i recently changed from a 200 micron sock to 50 and wish i would of done this a long time ago... i don't mind changing/cleaning my sock every day i have reef ocd especially if it's gonna keep the crap i'm trapping now out of my system... i've been carbon dosing going on 10 months now i switched from vodka to biopellets 3 months ago and im in the process of cutting back my pellets and gonna go completely green...my ATS has been running for 4 months and is working flawless...great growth, only grows GHA, and keeps my DT completely free of any visual algae i clean my glass about every 10 days ... only thing i'm unsure of is how efficient it will be when i completely stop carbon dosing.

 

[Ted_C]

Sounds like those MP40's are working out good for you. Glad they went to a good home.

make no mistake Chad - daily changing of filter socks is a PITA. I used to only run one sock on my 120 - changed daily after my evening feeding. They are a great solution to catching the nori if it can get up and out of your tank into the overflow.

I liked to rinse them with the hose every night after I pulled them around 7 PM. Problem is - in winter - it's dark and you can't get a good rinse in.

So they sit in a bucket for a day before you can get to rinsing them. Then sometimes you get a bit lazy (I'm not saying you - I'm saying me - or in general) and you just keep putting more and more socks in the bucket and put it off till the weekend. That may be one of the worst smells in our hobby - rotten poo and uneaten food that has "fermented" for a week. I used to have to let them soak in hose water + bleach for an hour before I even tried to spray them out. Then into the washing machine on lowest lightest cycle with hottest water with 1/2 cup bleach - then another cycle - using a cap ful of prime in the initial water and the rinse water.

Even then - on the lowest lightest cycle - the socks were getting the heck beat out of them - I'd occasionally find a piece of felt floating around the tank that was ripped from the filter during the washing.

 

[ChadRaay86]

Sounds like those MP40's are working out good for you. Glad they went to a good home.

make no mistake Chad - daily changing of filter socks is a PITA. I used to only run one sock on my 120 - changed daily after my evening feeding. They are a great solution to catching the nori if it can get up and out of your tank into the overflow.

I liked to rinse them with the hose every night after I pulled them around 7 PM. Problem is - in winter - it's dark and you can't get a good rinse in.

So they sit in a bucket for a day before you can get to rinsing them. Then sometimes you get a bit lazy (I'm not saying you - I'm saying me - or in general) and you just keep putting more and more socks in the bucket and put it off till the weekend. That may be one of the worst smells in our hobby - rotten poo and uneaten food that has "fermented" for a week. I used to have to let them soak in hose water + bleach for an hour before I even tried to spray them out. Then into the washing machine on lowest lightest cycle with hottest water with 1/2 cup bleach - then another cycle - using a cap ful of prime in the initial water and the rinse water.

Even then - on the lowest lightest cycle - the socks were getting the heck beat out of them - I'd occasionally find a piece of felt floating around the tank that was ripped from the filter during the washing.

Haha, yeah the MP-40s are nice. I know what they were talking about when they said that the vortechs created an "undertow". on nutrient export mode I see stuff swirl at the bottom and come up to the top instead of being stuck at the bottom. I'm going to move the 40s to the back and put the 60s on the sides. That should do the trick.

I definitely got lazy with the socks, but I have a pretty good system now. I just have to remember to do it on the weekend

 

[rogergolf66]

start with maximizing the system's daily ability to export nutrients. ::

Are u just talking about filter socks here or something else too? If so what else?

 

[ichthyman]

Although focusing on different size "particles", both filter socks and protein skimmers are my mechanical filters of choice. Carbon-source additions will enhance their performance and further your ability to export nutrients.