NOT again....

[ArtemisGoldfish]

I never had this happen to me ArtemisGoldielox: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1842094 A standing ovation to the fish doc! :wavehand:

Sorry, fishyness I didn't intend to write this all onto your thread, but this guy needed a wake up call. I hope you understand.

I wish you the best with your tank and if you have any questions I'd love to help you out. I know how frustrating some things can be, but if your patient I'm sure everything will work out for you. Good luck buddy!

I greatly learned my lesson with the mistakes that I've made including accidentally using a silicone with fungicide for my nano. I'll own up to it.

Since that point, I put everything on hold and did quite a bit of scientific research into the matter including work with local biologists until the point that I was confident and competent enough in the field to never have that issue or similar issues again.

What have you done besides make unscientific assertions regarding a parasite. You look something head on and say "Na, I'll do it my way." Didn't you post that you've only had your PBT for less than a month and it's already been infected?

Everything that I've said can be backed via Science. What can you say versus that? I can say this: Pick up a book. Any individual can have a gigantic tank with a million fish. The responsible hobbyist makes sure that she does everything possible to provide the best possible care for their animals. Clearly, you're not doing this and clearly you're giving others anecdotal and dogmatic garbage so they can follow suit.

Way to go.

As a starter regarding the OP's original issue.

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 5." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, March 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 4." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, February 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 3." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, January 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2003. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 2." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, December 2003.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2003. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 1." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, November 2003.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

As for me currently, I have a 180DT mixed reef, two 29 HT's a 12g DT and a 10g invert quarantine tank. I have zero issues, can you say the same?

Finally, I'm not here to troll. I'm here to prevent the spread of misinformation.

 

[LukFox]

I'm glad you didn't just duck out, ArtemisGoldfish. I'm not sure what is up with SaltwaterAddict or why he's so mad. Sorry you have to deal with that guy. The guns and mockery were entirely uncalled for.

For the OP, when i did hypo I was sure to go 9-12 weeks. I too feel that 5 would not be enough. Sorry to hear it has returned for you.

 

[GhostCon1]

SaltwaterAdict, a bit of advice for you: I would calm down and try not to blatantly insult others before a mod comes in and starts reading this.

There's this little thing about not doing exactly what you are doing towards ArtemisGoldfish that they tend to not like.

 

[RBU1]

RBU1 man does that look like a beauty. I'm jealous. Does you lfs get those guys in often? I hardly ever see them around here. Please snap a pic when you place him into the DT. thanks, Tim

No not to many LFS get these in on a regular basis. This came from Christmas Island thru a wholesaler in Hawaii. I noticed a couple specs on him last night so we shall see.....Hopefully he can fight it off on his own. I have not been happy with my copper routine as of late.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltwaterAdict
LOL Ich is extremely overrated! Leave your tank alone and let nature take it's course. If you have good waterquality and feeding the fish well then you will see a complete reversal. Most people panick, QT, and then they have nothing but issues. My blue hippo and powderblue will get ich from time to time, but it will quickly go away. Check out my tank through my public profile. I got a ton of fish and will see ich come and go when I add new additions. You will never whip out ich I don't care who you hear this from, it's a complete fallacy. Ich will always be in your system no matter how careful you are with QT, dips, etc. I never dip my fish. It will usually do more harm than good, unless the fish really needs it. If it's a healthy fish, put him right on in!


Reply ArtemisGoldfish: This is dumb and the equivalent of saying you will never wipe (whip?) out tapeworms from your stomach. Cryptocaryon is a parasite. Without a host, it won't survive. Your mentality is what proliferates the mistreatment and death of marine animals.

Just because you don't physically see the parasite on your fish doesn't mean that it's not currently hosting in your fish's tissues. Since it's not such a big deal, do an autopsy on a marine animal that's died from organ failure or internal hemorhaging and then equate that to one of your animals.

-Obviously you can see how this guy called me out by stating that I'm dumb and my mentality leads to marine animal death. I will not tolerate this and I'm going to speak up. This is an insult and a cruel on at that! Then he goes as far as saying to do an autopsy on a fish when that is not possible for me or many people for that matter. As you can see this is degrading by telling me to do something out of the norm. I bet the majority of people on RC can't do this or would even want to try something this silly.

Quote SaltwaterAdict:
QT tanks are really only for bacterial/fungal infections IMO People usually panick when they see a spot on there fish and go to unnecessary extremes

Reply ArtemisGoldfish: Good to know that your anecdotal advice somehow overrides every other expert's and accomplished marine biologist's scientifically backed data...

Simply put, quarantine everything prior to putting it into your display tank. If you can prevent a problem, you should do everything in your power to do so.
These aren't a box of Legos that can be replaced, they are animals and as such need to be treated ethically. That is the point of the hobby.

-Wait, there's more. Here, he treats me like I'm a kid by saying animals aren't like legos. This guy has some nerve trying to label me and I think this is ridiculous having people troll around talking smack. If anything goldfish had it coming and if you can't see that then I'm sorry and don't know what to tell you!

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

No not to many LFS get these in on a regular basis. This came from Christmas Island thru a wholesaler in Hawaii. I noticed a couple specs on him last night so we shall see.....Hopefully he can fight it off on his own. I have not been happy with my copper routine as of late.

Wow, that's very cool man! I believe the yellow bellied Blue Morphs come from there as well. Hope all goes well with him. If you keep feeding him healthy foods then he should pull through. Did you put him in the DT or are you holding off? Either way works.

Yeah I couldn't agree with you more, copper can be very tricky and very hard to test accurately for. It can precipitate out of water, having you question the reading and adding more, then an overdose can easily occur. This would inevitably kill the fish. Also, you most likely need to do WC's more often in a QT and then as you take the copper out of the tank you need to add more which could lead to adding more copper with more potential problems. Tricky stuff that the typical hobbyist should stay away from.

This is exactly why I'm not one for dosing these chemicals because I think they can very easily do more harm than good even with experience hobbyist.

This one guy who's going around preaching that treating fish is the only way can't be further from the truth. Sure if a fish is sick then treating him would be fine, but a healthy fish with no signs of an illness is not worth the risk IMO

RBU I was reading your thread on if you should let nature take it's course and not quarantine. I like that thread very much and a good amount of people agree with me.

Very impressive tank btw :thumbsup: How big is it, you can PM me if you'd like?

 

[RBU1]

wow, that's very cool man! I believe the yellow bellied blue morphs come from there as well. Hope all goes well with him. If you keep feeding him healthy foods then he should pull through. Did you put him in the dt or are you holding off? Either way works.

Yeah i couldn't agree with you more, copper can be very tricky and very hard to test accurately for. It can precipitate out of water, having you question the reading and adding more, then an overdose can easily occur. This would inevitably kill the fish. Also, you most likely need to do wc's more often in a qt and then as you take the copper out of the tank you need to add more which could lead to adding more copper with more potential problems. Tricky stuff that the typical hobbyist should stay away from.

This is exactly why i'm not one for dosing these chemicals because i think they can very easily do more harm than good even with experience hobbyist.

This one guy who's going around preaching that treating fish is the only way can't be further from the truth. Sure if a fish is sick then treating him would be fine, but a healthy fish with no signs of an illness is not worth the risk imo

rbu i was reading your thread on if you should let nature take it's course and not quarantine. I like that thread very much and a good amount of people agree with me.

Very impressive tank btw :thumbsup: How big is it, you can pm me if you'd like?

300

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Gotta agree here to a point. I've had all of my fish for quite some time (last one introduced 3 months ago) and all were fine with no signs of ick. I swapped tanks about 3 weeks ago (72-180) and everything transitioned well. I started to notice the white spots about 5 days ago on one of my clowns. Since then I have lost 3 fish. I can only conclude that the stress of moving them caused the outbreak. No new fish so QT wasn't an issue.

Yeah, when you do a large upgrade usually you want to take precautious measures. Usually larger than a 50% WC can cause a great deal of stress because the necessary bacteria in the system needs to catch up and ammonia/nitrite spikes can occur. I'm not exactly sure how you did it, but if it were me I'd add the fish with the established rocks and established water. Over the next week I'd slowly add water, around say 10% of how much new water needs to be added every other day or every two days till you reach the total amount of water. Nothing good happens when you go fast in a reef tank. I'm sure there are more variables which can cause stress when upgrading like temp/salinity/PH being the same etc. Sry to hear about your loses, wish you the best with the rest of your fish.

 

[RBU1]

Yeah, when you do a large upgrade usually you want to take precautious measures. Usually larger than a 50% WC can cause a great deal of stress because the necessary bacteria in the system needs to catch up and ammonia/nitrite spikes can occur. I'm not exactly sure how you did it, but if it were me I'd add the fish with the established rocks and established water. Over the next week I'd slowly add water, around say 10% of how much new water needs to be added every other day or every two days till you reach the total amount of water. Nothing good happens when you go fast in a reef tank. I'm sure there are more variables which can cause stress when upgrading like temp/salinity/PH being the same etc. Sry to hear about your loses, wish you the best with the rest of your fish.

I am curious about your background... How long have you been in the hobby? How long have you had a system running?

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

I am curious about your background... How long have you been in the hobby? How long have you had a system running?

I'd say a good two years. I spend a great deal of time talking to experienced people who have been maintaining tanks for years. I'll be the first to tell you I don't know everything, but have accumulated a lot of good information over the years.

How bout yourself?

 

[RBU1]

Well I have been in the hooby about 6 years. Spend a great deal of time reading on here....

I also have developed several contacts that I trust to help me along the way.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

I'm going to have a 180 gallon build soon..you should check it out. It's going to be a 3 sided island style tank.

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

Yeah I couldn't agree with you more, copper can be very tricky and very hard to test accurately for.

No, buy a test kit. API and Sailfert both make cheap and accurate tests.

It can precipitate out of water, having you question the reading and adding more, then an overdose can easily occur.

Precipitation usage is incorrect. Precipitation IN to water from its chemically bound state is generally hard to accomplish unless you add another chemical additive to the water, specifically Formalin or another Aldehyde. So far the only evidence I can find regarding ammonia neutralizers or dechlorinators affecting Cu2 to Cu is purely anecdotal.

This is why you don't dose Copper with medications. Both Coppersafe and Cupramine are the most effective in dealing with parasitic infections with hyposalinity in second. I can provide peer reviewed sources upon request.

Also, you most likely need to do WC's more often in a QT and then as you take the copper out of the tank you need to add more which could lead to adding more copper with more potential problems.

1. Yes, water changes are required more often, however you don't need a 5000 gallon quarantine tank and you change minor amounts. 5% or so every 2-3 days.

29g for example would require you to change 2.5g every 3 days. Therapeutic levels of copper are generally .03 to .08 ppm. If you're using a standard dose of .05 ppm, the overall change would be about 12.5 % per week. As both Coppersafe and Cupramine are measured in drops, one should have no problem replacing any of the medication that's removed. If you can count, you can dose Copper effectively and safely.

1A. Using a HoB filter greatly assists in this process allowing you to delay water changes. I've gone as far as three weeks without a water change with only adding RO/DI water for evaporation and I experienced no problems, ammonia spikes, etc.

2. Yes, quarantining requires more work, however it pays off with a healthy and stable eco-system in your tank. Let's not be lazy here. Our animals pay the price when we are.

Tricky stuff that the typical hobbyist should stay away from.

Stop giving misinformation. The hobby suffers as a result.

This is exactly why I'm not one for dosing these chemicals because I think they can very easily do more harm than good even with experience hobbyist.

Follow the directions and you will have zero issues.

This one guy who's going around preaching that treating fish is the only way can't be further from the truth.

Prove it. Your statement refutes all science and logic.

Sure if a fish is sick then treating him would be fine, but a healthy fish with no signs of an illness is not worth the risk IMO

Nice strawman....I never said to dose anything if the fish is healthy.

RBU I was reading your thread on if you should let nature take it's course and not quarantine.

Nature =/ Your Aquarium.

Do you take medication when you're sick or do you let nature take its course?

-Obviously you can see how this guy called me out by stating that I'm dumb and my mentality leads to marine animal death. I will not tolerate this and I'm going to speak up. This is an insult and a cruel on at that! Then he goes as far as saying to do an autopsy on a fish when that is not possible for me or many people for that matter. As you can see this is degrading by telling me to do something out of the norm. I bet the majority of people on RC can't do this or would even want to try something this silly.

I said your statement was dumb. I still assert that.

Your mentality does lead to marine animal death. You refute scientifically backed evidence with anecdotal ideas. You then tell another hobbyist that quarantining isn't necessary and just to put the fish in the tank to "let nature take its course."

Anyone can do a fish autopsy. Go to your grocery store and pick up a whole Snapper. Purchase an old biology book, a scalpel and tweezers. Boom. You're ready to go. Barring species differences, the anatomy is very similar to what hobbyists keep. From here if you have a fish that dies from an unknown cause, you can perform another autopsy to see if there is anything that you can see right off the bat such as livor mortis, organ damage, internal bleeding, distented organs, tissue necrosis, etc. You can see all of these things without a microscope. I did the above and it cost me 18.00 $. Even if you're not willing to go this far, read about ichthyology, fish anatomy, secondary infections and injury deaths with fish. Knowledge goes a long way in this field.

Also, the "norm" is to quarantine. Again, all scientific evidence points to this. The CDC does this with people....

-Wait, there's more. Here, he treats me like I'm a kid by saying animals aren't like legos. This guy has some nerve trying to label me and I think this is ridiculous having people troll around talking smack. If anything goldfish had it coming and if you can't see that then I'm sorry and don't

You show blatant disregard for the safety and well being of something you consider a pet. So yes, you show immature behavior by subjecting marine animals to this.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Anyone can do a fish autopsy. Go to your grocery store and pick up a whole Snapper. Purchase an old biology book, a scalpel and tweezers. Boom. You're ready to go. Barring species differences, the anatomy is very similar to what hobbyists keep. From here if you have a fish that dies from an unknown cause, you can perform another autopsy to see if there is anything that you can see right off the bat such as livor mortis, organ damage, internal bleeding, distented organs, tissue necrosis, etc. You can see all of these things without a microscope. I did the above and it cost me 18.00 $. Even if you're not willing to go this far, read about ichthyology, fish anatomy, secondary infections and injury deaths with fish. Knowledge goes a long way in this field.

You can stick to your little fetish autopsy, I guarantee you can count me out. Go somewhere else and depict others posts! You clearly don't know what you're doing if you just recently had a tank crash. I find it hysterical that you still go around acting like a know it all when your tank "CRASHED". A little nano at that! I honestly don't believe you have the tanks you're saying you do. Even if you do I bet you they're plain old goldfish tanks. Man those are pretty hard to take care of fishdoctor. I can care a less how much anecdotel evidence of you have. People don't go around saying yeah, I can back this up and that up. I like to share my experience and it appears you go around the net pulling up other peoples work. Experience is the best and an article or two doesn't do it for me. Have a nice day!

I bet any money you're going to split my sentences up and criticize. That's all you're good at! Couldn't be more judgmental if you ask me. Well I'm done with you and not going to keep going on with your childish activity. You already butchered fishyness's thread and didn't even apologize. Next time this happens PM the person and stop posting all over someones thread. You got a lot to learn buddy! :fun2:

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

You can stick to your little fetish autopsy, I guarantee you can count me out. Go somewhere else and depict others posts! You clearly don't know what you're doing if you just recently had a tank crash. I find it hysterical that you still go around acting like a know it all when your tank "CRASHED". A little nano at that! I honestly don't believe you have the tanks you're saying you do. Even if you do I bet you they're plain old goldfish tanks. Man those are pretty hard to take care of fishdoctor. I can care a less how much anecdotel evidence of you have. People don't go around saying yeah, I can back this up and that up. I like to share my experience and it appears you go around the net pulling up other peoples work. Experience is the best and an article or two doesn't do it for me. Have a nice day!

I bet any money you're going to split my sentences up and criticize. That's all you're good at! Couldn't be more judgmental if you ask me. Well I'm done with you and not going to keep going on with your childish activity. You already butchered fishyness's thread and didn't even apologize. Next time this happens PM the person and stop posting all over someones thread. You got a lot to learn buddy! :fun2:

There's no need to disect this post. You've done enough already to invalidate your "experience" and lack of reading comprehension skills.

As long as you continue to post garbage that is incorrect and/or puts other people's animals in jeopardy, I will continue to refute your information with scientifically backed data regardless of what thread you participate in.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

If you have a healthy fish and it's not experiencing any signs of illness then plop him right on into the display tank and you'll thank me later. It's so simple you buy the fish and put him in your tank. No need for any headaches or worrying about overdosing harmful copper medication. It's a tried and true method. What a beautiful sight.:fish1::fish1: You'll catch on sooner than later, they all do. You can find that it works for many others right here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843312

 

[steelhead77]

SaltwaterAdict you are my frickin' RC HERO!!! This goldfish dude comes out of nowhere and starts acting like he's Mr. Reefmaster or something. I had a similar run-in with this dude, and quickly realized he's all hat and no head despite all his scientific research over the past 3 months. Good job calling him out on his BS and pointing out his total lack of experience.

Oh! And I'm right there with you on the ich subject as well. People on this site really tend to panic when it comes to ich. My main advise has always been to take a wait and see attitude and I get mercilessly flamed for taking that position.

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

and I get mercilessly flamed for taking that position.

Big surprise there...

 

[steelhead77]

Big surprise there...

You're digging yourself a pretty deep grave here, dude and quickly wearing out your welcome. I would suggest you get about another year or two of successful reefkeeping under your belt before you go offering up advice, especially since you so recently had a major crash. This hobby is about 30% research and 70% experience. IMO, you need more a lot more experience and a ton more humility.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

SaltwaterAdict you are my frickin' RC HERO!!! This goldfish dude comes out of nowhere and starts acting like he's Mr. Reefmaster or something. I had a similar run-in with this dude, and quickly realized he's all hat and no head despite all his scientific research over the past 3 months. Good job calling him out on his BS and pointing out his total lack of experience.

Oh! And I'm right there with you on the ich subject as well. People on this site really tend to panic when it comes to ich. My main advise has always been to take a wait and see attitude and I get mercilessly flamed for taking that position.

Glad to see your on the same page as me. Honestly, who does this guy think he is. Apparently not a fish guru after his "recent" upset aka tank crash. :lol2: Yeah, dude has some nerve jumping on RC acting like he has all the information. Anecdotal this anecdotal that BS!

Experience has a lot more to do with success rather than some stupid little articles he festers up.:worried: This incompetent moron needs to go assess his precious goldfish. Man are those some hard creatures to take care of.

Only a fool jumps on another site and depicts every persons sentences especially considering he has barely crossed the 50 post marker. :thumbdown

I'd like the mods to give the boot to this guy so he can go troll somewhere else. :thumbsup: