NOT again....

[SaltwaterAdict]

You're digging yourself a pretty deep grave here, dude and quickly wearing out your welcome. I would suggest you get about another year or two of successful reefkeeping under your belt before you go offering up advice, especially since you so recently had a major crash. This hobby is about 30% research and 70% experience. IMO, you need more a lot more experience and a ton more humility.

Couldn't have said it better!

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

You're digging yourself a pretty deep grave here, dude and quickly wearing out your welcome. I would suggest you get about another year or two of successful reefkeeping under your belt before you go offering up advice, especially since you so recently had a major crash.

For starters, I added a fungicide to my tank due to wanting to add a refugium. It was a parameter error in the construction of an additional tank that caused the overall issue. Not a disease, not a parasite, not unstable parameters.

This does not also somehow negate what Fenner, Calfo and others state regarding Cryptocaryon. There is scientific evidence to back what I state. You two are attempting to debate a point via a strawman argument with the undertones of argumentum ad hominem.

The experience in doing something wrong repeatedly does not somehow make you an expert nor does it make tested experiments irrelevant. This is what you both need to realize.

I can't remember what your particular issue was but with this guy he's making his anecdotal and erroneous statements based upon his "experience." We advance the field and the hobby with testable practice. He could have fifty years in the field and his practices would still be incorrect.

Ever do any research beyond undergrad work? Professors demand vertiable and reproduceable tests for this exact reason, to prevent anecdotes and pseudoscience from corrupting the scientific process.

If we reduce everything down to simple mathematics we get the following:

Cryptocaryon = parasite
Parasites need hosts.
Absence of hosts = no parasites

Copper kills Crypto
Copper is safe for fish
Copper is an effective treatment to get rid of Crypto

Cryptocaryon damages fish leaving them open to secondary infections,etc. It can also kill the fish
Cryptocaryon is highly infectious
There is a possibility that the fish you purchase from the store will have this disease.

What do you do next?

A. Put the fish in your display tank with other animals despite the first parameter?

B. Quarantine the fish?

This hobby is about 30% research and 70% experience. IMO, you need more a lot more experience and a ton more humility.

Scientific process:

If I do "x" it'll result in "y."

X produces Y and Z

X= No quarantine
Y= Happy fish
Z = Dead fish

Y is effective however notable abberant effects occurr resulting in high occurences of "Z"

If I do "w" instead of "x" will I reduce notable abberant effects from "Z" and increase overal occurences of "Y"

W = Quarantine

"W" validates the above hypothesis.

Do you now understand the correlation between experience and science? You both do the EXACT opposite of the learning process.


You two can happily go talk each other to death about how awesome your tanks are, flex your post count or whatever however don't espouse this opinionated and error ridden crap to other people to the point of having them risk their time, money and animal's lives.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

You're digging yourself a pretty deep grave here, dude and quickly wearing out your welcome. I would suggest you get about another year or two of successful reefkeeping under your belt before you go offering up advice, especially since you so recently had a major crash.



For starters, I added a fungicide to my tank due to wanting to add a refugium. It was a parameter error in the construction of an additional tank that caused the overall issue. Not a disease, not a parasite, not unstable parameters.

This does also somehow negate what Fenner, Calfo and others state regarding Cryptocaryon. There is scientific evidence to back what I state. You two are attempting to debate a point via a strawman argument with the undertones of argumentum ad hominem.

The experience in doing something wrong repeatedly does not somehow make you an expert nor does it make tested experiments irrelevant. This is what you both need to realize.

I can't remember what your particular issue was but with this guy he's making his anecdotal and erroneous statements based upon his "experience." We advance the field and the hobby with testable practice. He could have fifty years in the field and his practices would still be incorrect.

Ever do any research beyond undergrad work? Professors demand vertiable and reproduceable tests for this exact reason, to prevent anecdotes and pseudoscience from corrupting the scientific process.

If we reduce everything down to simple mathematics we get the following:

Cryptocaryon = parasite
Parasites need hosts.
Absence of hosts = no parasites

Copper kills Crypto
Copper is safe for fish
Copper is an effective treatment to get rid of Crypto

Cryptocaryon damages fish leaving them open to secondary infections,etc. It can also kill the fish
Cryptocaryon is highly infectious
There is a possibility that the fish you purchase from the store will have this disease.

What do you do next?

A. Put the fish in your display tank with other animals despite the first parameter?

B. Quarantine the fish?

I've never came across a bigger joke than yourself and suggest you quit while your "not" ahead. Go have a field day with your professors and maybe you can get them to go back to your place and talk more nonsense. Sounds like a good idea, eh? :strooper:

 

[thirst]

Since I am bored.... Artemis, while you provide some very valuable information, the lack of tact by which you share that information renders your extremely valuable information useless. It is one thing to know, it is another to share that knowledge in a way that adds value to the outside world. Perhaps, spend a little less time reading scientific articles and read other similarly valuable material on topics of how to persuade and sell.

 

[RBU1]

WOW....I am confused with this thread. Goldfish is really getting torn up and I am not sure why. One thing I have learned in this hobby is there are several different opnions. Due what you feel is right for you. If you want to QT great if you don't then so be it. I like to QT if nothing else it lets the fish get comfortable. I have not had great success lately with my QT and lost the last 2 fish that I purchased in QT. Not sure if it was from the copper or what, but I can tell you I am taking a different approach with the black tang I currently have in QT. I still am not sure what that approach is going to be but its going to be different then the past 2 fish. Due I feel you can keep an ich free tank....YES....Do I feel it is hard to do....YES....If the reading I have done about the parasite is true its worth it to try and keep it out of your tank. The bottom line, its your tank, there your fish, do what you think is right. Can we get back on topic for the sake of the poster. After all we are all in this hobby together and should be working as a team to help each other. OK I have said enough.....

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Scientific process:

If I do "x" it'll result in "y."

X produces Y and Z

X= No quarantine
Y= Happy fish
Z = Dead fish

Y is effective however notable abberant effects occurr resulting in high occurences of "Z"

If I do "w" instead of "x" will I reduce notable abberant effects from "Z" and increase overal occurences of "Y"

W = Quarantine

"W" validates the above hypothesis.

I just laughed so hard I crapped my pants..

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

WOW....I am confused with this thread. Goldfish is really getting torn up and I am not sure why. One thing I have learned in this hobby is there are several different opnions. Due what you feel is right for you. If you want to QT great if you don't then so be it. I like to QT if nothing else it lets the fish get comfortable. I have not had great success lately with my QT and lost the last 2 fish that I purchased in QT. Not sure if it was from the copper or what, but I can tell you I am taking a different approach with the black tang I currently have in QT. I still am not sure what that approach is going to be but its going to be different then the past 2 fish. Due I feel you can keep an ich free tank....YES....Do I feel it is hard to do....YES....If the reading I have done about the parasite is true its worth it to try and keep it out of your tank. The bottom line, its your tank, there your fish, do what you think is right. Can we get back on topic for the sake of the poster. After all we are all in this hobby together and should be working as a team to help each other. OK I have said enough.....

I would like to try to help goldfish out, but trust me it's a lost cause. :hammer: If you read it back from the beginning you'd understand.

As for fishyness I've been helping him along the way..hope all is well man. How are your fish doing and what route did you decide to take? :fish1:

 

[fishyness]

There are no spots at all on the blue tang. ( I know about the life cycle of crypt, so dont go there please) . Im not positively sure it was ich spots, if it was there were maybe 3 or 4. No one else. Tank 2 which was ran fallow the same 5 weeks shows no signs at all after I just restocked. Yep just tossed them in that one. The 75g I have new finned friends in QT. IF it was ich Im hoping to be one of these few lottery winners who have a spot or 2 now and then but it goes away.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Excellent news! That's good to hear man. keep up the good work!

btw I love your avatar.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

What new arrivals do you have in QT?

 

[fishyness]

pajama cardinal, purple firefish, verrrryyyy small coral beauty, six line, and a tailspot blenny. They are going in the 75 tomorrow.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

Nice selection of fish. Sounds very exciting! Best of luck.

 

[billsreef]

[flamealert]


Ok folks, remember, debate the idea, but don't go insulting each other and making it personal. This is the first warning to all, on both sides of the argument.

 

[dc]

Since I am bored.... Artemis, while you provide some very valuable information, the lack of tact by which you share that information renders your extremely valuable information useless. It is one thing to know, it is another to share that knowledge in a way that adds value to the outside world. Perhaps, spend a little less time reading scientific articles and read other similarly valuable material on topics of how to persuade and sell.

This about sums it up for me also. All the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't deliver it in a reasonable fashion. Step back for a minute and realize this is a BB.

Now let's play nice here.

 

[billsreef]

On the subject on hand, with nearly 30 years as a professional aquarist/aquaculturist, I'm a firm believer in treating and not taking the wait and see approach. With a proper diagnosis, and proper treatment, cyrpt is 100% beatable. The wait and see approach has a success wait on par with the snake oil reef safe treatments out there. Somewhat lower than the odds of a coin toss decision. It does work sometimes, just often enough to make some people believers as with the reef safe snake oil remedies. The trick comes down to, do you want to gamble or go for the sure thing.

 

[cougaran]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltwaterAdict
LOL Ich is extremely overrated! Leave your tank alone and let nature take it's course. If you have good waterquality and feeding the fish well then you will see a complete reversal. Most people panick, QT, and then they have nothing but issues.


Essentially, the close your eyes and wish the problem away method is not the answer. Now i do agree that good water quality and feeding the fish high end foods do help with their immune systems. However, Ich is not the only thing that is out there that proper QT procedure help with. You also don't mention where you get your fish from, is it from one trusted dealer that you have had extremely good luck with or do you buy from different dealers and different local fish stores?
I'll also agree that people do panic but rightfully so.. Some diseases/parasites are time sensitive, wait too long and its too late. I recently had a fish order where I had 4 fish from the same dealer in QT all doing fine for a week. All parameters were good, feeding was excellent and vigorous and then one morning I had a floater. No external signs whatsoever. Didnt think much about it as no other fish had any signs, the dead one had absolutely no signs either..Boom next day another fish, floater..he was eating very healthy day before when I had found floater. I added copper and guess what.... no more floaters. The remaining fish are now in my main with no other problems. Am I glad they went into QT instead of just placing them in main..HECK YES!!!

I'll also say that when people panic they may overdose their fish and kill them that way. Or they may incorrectly set up a hospital tank and kill their fish that way. They may also not realize that they have to do frequent water changes to keep amonia levels down, which tends to be a major problem because nitrfying bacteria is mostly unable to flourish under treatment conditions. Another favorite is not doing the recommended water change that some medicines require. Copper is also another fatality prone treatment as if levels are not monitored then some minute portion of the parasite may escape to only cause a reinfection or more deadly combinations of toxicity in the tank.. There's also the combination of products that cause problems as well.

And you may find this shocking but places like Liveaquaria have a QT period..thats right a QT period for all fish.. I guess they dont want to lose all those fish they import to disease by the just feed them and have good water quality.

BUT if there is one main point of me writing this to anyone reading this is that QT is effective, it is important to use it and it does save fish lives. So please dont just dump them in your main tank.

 

[RBU1]

Direct from the Divers Den site...

"We have one dedicated quarantine system for new fish, one dedicated treatment system, and one main fish system for fish that are either on the Diver's Den® section of the site, or species that will be for sale in the coming days. Once again, all fish brought into this facility are quarantined, observed and medicated if need be for a minimum of two weeks. Everything we offer for sale is eating well, and is fully adjusted to a captive environment to make a smooth transition into your aquarium."

 

[fishyness]

I buy all my fish from Liveaquaria now.

 

[billsreef]

Direct from the Divers Den site...

"We have one dedicated quarantine system for new fish, one dedicated treatment system, and one main fish system for fish that are either on the Diver's Den® section of the site, or species that will be for sale in the coming days. Once again, all fish brought into this facility are quarantined, observed and medicated if need be for a minimum of two weeks. Everything we offer for sale is eating well, and is fully adjusted to a captive environment to make a smooth transition into your aquarium."

That should tell everyone a lot right there. A large retailer taking the time and considerable expense to QT and treat as needed the large quantities of fish that they do. While it's only the Diver's Den fish that get that treatment, it's still considerable. Yes they charge more for those fish, but those fish also have a stellar reputation

 

[Stuart60611]

I posted the below recently in another thread which I think demonstrates why quarantine is the only accepted approach.

Let me put this way. Name a single recognized authority or cite to a single published article or book which does not strongly recommend quarantine of every fish. You cannot because they do not exist.

Conversely, I can cite to more recognized authoriites, articles, and books which all unanimously recommend the quarantine of every fish than can be posted in a single message on RC.

Likewise, name a single public aquarium or zoo which does not quarantine every fish. You cannot because they all do.

What does this demonstrate? It demonstrates that every recognized authority in this hobby recommend the quarantine of every fish. For those who disagree, I guess you know more than every recognized authority, published article, book, public aquarium, or zoo in the world.

Moreover, I strongly suggest that those who are recommending to others not to quarantine seriously consider the ramifications of their advice. It is one thing if you choose to knowingly take a risk and not quarantine your fish. It is another matter when you advise someone else not to quarantine their fish, particularlly when you do so in a misleading way like stating that experience has shown that quarantine is more detrimental to fish than not quarantining or that quarantine is too difficult or costly to accomplish. The distinction here is you are causing a less experienced hobbyiest to risk the very lives of their pets under false pretenses, particulally when all (and not just some) of the authoritative data points to quarantining fish. I find such behavior immoral and wrong.