Nothing added to tank since '09, Ick appears

[niles1967]

I have a 350g bare-bottom FO. The last additions to the tank were a Koran angel and an Atlantic Blue tang during the first week in December. Both fish were QT'd for 6 weeks with no issues.

Prior to that I added some live rock from NYA a month earlier (also qt'd).

Now I have noticed that a few fish were twitching and sure enough I see some light cases of ick breaking out. How is this possible? I had always been a believer that Ick is not always present in a tank. I guess I am wrong.

How on earth do the parasites go that long without manifesting themselves? Especially in a bare bottom system. What a huge PITA it is going to be to hypo a 350g tank. That is a lot of water.

Anyone else ever have Ick "spontaneously appear"?

 

[LukFox]

If the parasite population is low, they could easily be hiding in the gills. More than 90% of the susceptible surface area of a fish is in the gills where you would never see the ich.

If the fish weren't treated for ich, and the rocks weren't quarantined for a long enough period (10-12 weeks), that's how you got your ich.

 

[jnc914]

What did you treat the fish with during the 6 weeks of QT?

 

[niles1967]

I am definitely leaning towards the live rock having the Ick. I only Qt'd it for 4 weeks.

I only treat my new fish with two rounds of PraziPro and nothing else unless i see a problem. If I do see Ick I will hypo for six weeks. I have never had the need to use copper.

 

[evsalty]

I am definitely leaning towards the live rock having the Ick. I only Qt'd it for 4 weeks.

I only treat my new fish with two rounds of PraziPro and nothing else unless i see a problem. If I do see Ick I will hypo for six weeks. I have never had the need to use copper.

So you felt the need to proactively use PraziPro (I know, it's an angel thing lol) but never felt you would benifit from proactive copper treatments? This line of thinking seems odd to me. Especially since ick can affect so many more species of fish then flukes do. All my fish qt'ing is done in copper myself unless the fish is said to not tolerate copper ofcorse.

For your current situation I would probably just bite the bullet and hypo that tank since it is FOwlr. You might loose some of the life on the rocks but that will all return in time. Sounds like your fish replacement cost would out weigh the water costs.

 

[niles1967]

I never saw any issues with my fish so I didn't subject them to copper. I still dont think copper is a good thing. I may hypo the QT tank in the future and hold the fish longer.

here are some bad pictures of the tank in question:

 

[evsalty]

Just curious but why do you think Prazi Pro is a "GOOD THING" but copper isn't? They are both chemicals that kill bad things. HMMMMM a few bucks in copper or $3k in fish....hmmmmm. See where I am going with that.

Again at this point it is there and needs to be treated so I would strongly suggest hypoing that whole tank.

 

[niles1967]

Copper is an element that is an irritant that also has an effect on the desire to eat. I do not think PraziPro has that effect. Every case of Ick that I encountered in QT has always been resolved with hypo. I will use hypo proactively in the future but I would bet my bottom dollar the Ick came from the live rock.

I have already started filling the Brutes with RODI. I am biting the bullet and putting the tank into hypo.

 

[LukFox]

Copper is an element that is an irritant that also has an effect on the desire to eat. I do not think PraziPro has that effect.

Prazi has affected some of my fish's desire to eat during treatment, and others have experienced the same. So long as the fish are conditioned beforehand, a few weeks or copper should not be a problem. Hypo should work too provided you don't have fish that are sensitive to it.

 

[niles1967]

More info: the visible Ick is only on my Scribbled (had for 3 years) and Blueline (last Summer). It is not on my Powder Blue tang which, by reputation, should have been the first.

 

[anbosu]

I would consider taking your rock out and treating with copper. You could put some ceramic decorations in the tank in the meantime to provide cover.

 

[SDguy]

I would consider taking your rock out and treating with copper. You could put some ceramic decorations in the tank in the meantime to provide cover.

I agree. I would consider treating the whole tank with cupramine or the like, unless you are certain it's ich, and you have experience using hypo.

 

[evsalty]

I would consider taking your rock out and treating with copper. You could put some ceramic decorations in the tank in the meantime to provide cover.

I agree. I would consider treating the whole tank with cupramine or the like, unless you are certain it's ich, and you have experience using hypo.

Keep in mind that copper will stain silicon and at that point will be in the system until all the silicone is replaced so I am not sure that that is actually the best route. Would it work, yes. Is it the best choice, perhaps not. Just think of this. You are removing the rock so that copper does not get into the rock but then you still have the silicone and put the rock back in. The levels will be small of corse but that is a big tank with lots of silicone.

 

[SDguy]

Would it work, yes. Is it the best choice, perhaps not.

I have kept inverts and corals in tanks previously treated with cupramine, and never had a problem. So I personally don't think this is an issue. But that's beside the point.

Considering:

1. The size of the fish
2. The logistics of removing them and housing them in a hospital tank for treatment.
3. Keeping water quality up in that hoptital tank.
4. The display tank itself has no inverts, and would look no different after copper treatement.

I suggest, as in my previous post, treating the whole tank, as a second choice, after hypo

 

[LukFox]

The levels in the silicon probably wouldn't make a difference in a FOWLR though. I used my 10g as a quarantine at one point, even treating it with copper. It currently houses shrimp, snails, a huge pod population, and an eel (which is copper sensitive, too). I never replaced the silicon, but if there is any copper in there, it isn't enough to harm anything. Treating the tank would be easiest, and the rock would hold a lot more copper than silicon I'd think.

 

[cwoods8]

Well........how are their behaviors.....(are they still eating and alert).....do you plan on adding any more to the tank (if so my thoughts are probably fruitless). Despite what others have mentioned...many of us (though some will be afraid to admit it) do carry on with ich present in our tanks.....with that being said....stress or even the addition of a new fish into the display will have the potential to trigger ich....

quarantine is necessary, regardless.......but I for one have bigger concerns over other diseases..such as flukes and velvet (which will wipe out a tank)

 

[small alien]

At least your tank looks pretty easy to break down. Not like a full blown reef. Good luck.

 

[niles1967]

The tank is 3/4" acryllic so there is no silicone to worry about. the fish are showing no signs of illness except for the usual twitching and flicking. My QT tank is only 55g and would not hold all of that rock. I simply have to hypo.

I have not had to do this in a couple of years so let me know if I am missing anything:

.009 brought down over a few days and held there for 6 weeks;
monitor ph carefully and buffer frequently;
biofilter may slow down, monitor ammonia daily;
skimmer will not work well;
raise salinity slowly when done

thanks for the help so far; greatly appreciated

 

[ccampbell57]

The tank is 3/4" acryllic so there is no silicone to worry about. the fish are showing no signs of illness except for the usual twitching and flicking. My QT tank is only 55g and would not hold all of that rock. I simply have to hypo.

I have not had to do this in a couple of years so let me know if I am missing anything:

.009 brought down over a few days and held there for 6 weeks;
monitor ph carefully and buffer frequently;
biofilter may slow down, monitor ammonia daily;
skimmer will not work well;
raise salinity slowly when done

thanks for the help so far; greatly appreciated

Twitching and flicking tells me that there is something else in there that is causing them issues. Ich is very apparent and taking it to hypo does not hurt anything.

Your main issue is the aquascaping of the tank. THere is nowhere for the fish to hide and get away from the other fish. They are territorial to begin with and when there is nothing for them to get away from they will not act "normal". I have seen this in the QT that I set up because it is PVC and bare bottom. THe fish survive, but do not thrive. I treat every fish that comes through QT with copper and prazi and when needed Furan for bacterial issues...no questions asked. QTing your fish for 6 weeks and treating with nothing is only half of QTing. Ich can lay dormant for more than 6 weeks, some have said the gestation period is now aroun 90 days.

As for hypo, there should be no issues with ammonia. Your PH may drop, just monitor.

When you re-aquascape the tank, take into consideration each fish and make sure that there is hiding space for them...especially the big ones. The configuration now is unatural and will cause stress and behavior that will have you questioning them.

 

[niles1967]

Twitching and flicking tells me that there is something else in there that is causing them issues. Ich is very apparent and taking it to hypo does not hurt anything.

Your main issue is the aquascaping of the tank. THere is nowhere for the fish to hide and get away from the other fish. They are territorial to begin with and when there is nothing for them to get away from they will not act "normal". I have seen this in the QT that I set up because it is PVC and bare bottom. THe fish survive, but do not thrive. I treat every fish that comes through QT with copper and prazi and when needed Furan for bacterial issues...no questions asked. QTing your fish for 6 weeks and treating with nothing is only half of QTing. Ich can lay dormant for more than 6 weeks, some have said the gestation period is now aroun 90 days.

As for hypo, there should be no issues with ammonia. Your PH may drop, just monitor.

When you re-aquascape the tank, take into consideration each fish and make sure that there is hiding space for them...especially the big ones. The configuration now is unatural and will cause stress and behavior that will have you questioning them.

My Queen, Blue Ring and Blue Face have been together for three years and do not bother each other. The Scribbled, Blue Line and Koran are more recent additions and there is very little aggression between them. Most of the aggression occurs around feeding time. One might say any aquarium environment is unnatural. I really do not believe there is any stress related ailments.

Are you recommending that I hypo the tank for 90 days? I was thinking 7 weeks max.