oceanus vs. osmolator

[old95er]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9490291#post9490291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crumbletop
I don't care how well a topoff system is designed. Hooking up directly to RO/DI is a mistake waiting to happen, IMO. It's an unlimited reservoir, and people have had their tanks crash because of topoff failure AND because the topoff performed perfectly but water was gushing out because of a blocked drain line or an overflowing skimmer...

Redundancy is a good thing. Both the Osmolator and the Oceanus topoffs have many redundancy features built in. However, the best redundancy feature by far for an auto topoff is a limited source water reservoir.

I don't understand this statement. The Oceanus has an outlet that you hook the pump into as a falesafe if the water gets too low. Also it will shut down the ATO solenoid if the water gets too high. The only thing that could go wrong is the solenoid failing and staying open, and I believe they provide two of those for backup.

Personally I like the idea of hooking direct to the RO line.

What happens if your suggested limited container system fails, and the water does not get topped off, the Tunze does not control the return pump the way that Oceanus does, so you could have no water in the sump, which would stop filtration, and the pump could burn up, which could burn down the house.

Many things can happen. I agree that you should protect yourself, but the Tunze seems to also have faults, they are just different than the Oceanus.

The Oceanus seems to be better equipped to deal with problems.

I originally planned to get the Tunze, and now that I have found the Oceanus line, I think they are better setups.

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10012904#post10012904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by old95er
I don't understand this statement. The Oceanus has an outlet that you hook the pump into as a falesafe if the water gets too low. Also it will shut down the ATO solenoid if the water gets too high. The only thing that could go wrong is the solenoid failing and staying open, and I believe they provide two of those for backup.

Personally I like the idea of hooking direct to the RO line.

What happens if your suggested limited container system fails, and the water does not get topped off, the Tunze does not control the return pump the way that Oceanus does, so you could have no water in the sump, which would stop filtration, and the pump could burn up, which could burn down the house.

Many things can happen. I agree that you should protect yourself, but the Tunze seems to also have faults, they are just different than the Oceanus.

The Oceanus seems to be better equipped to deal with problems.

I originally planned to get the Tunze, and now that I have found the Oceanus line, I think they are better setups.

I am not debating which is more safe oceanus vs. osmolator but again I have seen what happens when you hook up your top off directly to a r.o unit.

First off evaporation is a much slower process and have a little more chance to catch the problem and if you leave for a weekend and come home you probably will have a chance to correct the problem. If your r.o. keeps dumping fresh water into your sump and it overflows and damages you floors or ceilings or what ever. Plus invertabretes can handle a slight increase in salinity vs a major decrease. I would rather have my pump run dry and possibly burn out than having my tank nuked because my r.o. kept dumping fresh water into my tank. Most people have circulation in there tank any how.

But you are right no system is perfect.
Dave

 

[old95er]

Well, I am sure the debate, or some other, will rage on!

The RO direct to the tank is likely a cause for concern, if you do not have a device that can monitor and adjust. All of the tank crash stories seem to be related to mechanical float valves, and unregulated Kalk dispensers.

I have not yet heard of an electronic device such as the Oceanus failing and causing a crash.

Unless you have the coin to hire a personal tank monitor, I guess the electronic ones will need to suffice.

Peace

 

[HBtank]

After my first year and some change at reefcentral I have seen one consistant tank crasher.

Top offs.

I am setting one up myself at this time, but this is going to weigh VERY HEAVILY in its design.

Seriously, this has been the only controllable thing I have seen that consistantly causes full tank crashes.

I told myself that I would not set one up at all because of the horrible stories I saw, but the daily topoffs are just getting to me and I have since seen ways to do so safely. And I will be using at least 2 fail safes (one being a limited time window on my AQ jr. and two float switch) as well as a limited resevoir to let me feel like it is ok.

 

[Paulairduck]

Tunze top notch

Tunze top notch

I run two of the ato's from Tunze, they are great, the customer service from roger at Tunze is second to none, I would buy everything Tunze if I could afford it.

 

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10014215#post10014215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by old95er
Well, I am sure the debate, or some other, will rage on!

The RO direct to the tank is likely a cause for concern, if you do not have a device that can monitor and adjust. All of the tank crash stories seem to be related to mechanical float valves, and unregulated Kalk dispensers.

I have not yet heard of an electronic device such as the Oceanus failing and causing a crash.

Unless you have the coin to hire a personal tank monitor, I guess the electronic ones will need to suffice.

Peace

There is no debate. The stuff happens. People have had their drain plug from the display causing an overflow onto the floor and a steady influx of topoff that turns their saltwater tank into a freshwater tank. People have had skimmer overflows that result in the same thing. If you have a limited reservoir connected instead of an unlimited supply of fresh water, you minimize the potential problems. Do what ever you want to do. If you think the benefits outweigh the risks then more power to you. As general advice to those in the hobby, it is not recommended. cf. this months Reefkeeping mag

<a href='http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/ml/index.php' target=_blank>Hooking Up an RO Unit Directly to Your Sump - A Recipe for Disaster</a>

 

[baja_hammer2003]

I have a oceanus atlas pro and there is a float sensor in my main tank if my water level raise`s it shuts the top off circuit off if my sump water level raise`s it shuts the top off circuit off if my sump water level gets to low it shuts top off circuit off i also have it hooked up to my neptune controller that oceanus controller sends a signal to neptune controller of a high or low water condition and pages me it also has dual solenoids built in with a test button so i can test each solenoid these top off`s are the best there is no comparison against a tunze crumble top is 1 of those people that hate change keep filling your top off container cumble top

 

[old95er]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10015593#post10015593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crumbletop
There is no debate. The stuff happens. People have had their drain plug from the display causing an overflow onto the floor and a steady influx of topoff that turns their saltwater tank into a freshwater tank. People have had skimmer overflows that result in the same thing. If you have a limited reservoir connected instead of an unlimited supply of fresh water, you minimize the potential problems. Do what ever you want to do. If you think the benefits outweigh the risks then more power to you. As general advice to those in the hobby, it is not recommended. cf. this months Reefkeeping mag

<a href='http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/ml/index.php' target=_blank>Hooking Up an RO Unit Directly to Your Sump - A Recipe for Disaster</a>

Thanks for your passionate dedication to your setup. You have made your point many times, and I think we all appreciate your perspective.

The Thread is about the comparison between two controllers, not between a limited reservoir versus contiunuous feed.

To stay on point, the list of feateres and capabilities of the Oceanus line seems to beat the Tunze system. I am sure that it is a capable system, and will top off the tank, but it is limited in that it does not have two solenoids for backup, an outlet to shut down pumps, output to a separate controller, ability to use any pump, tests for solenoid operation, three float sensors and the ability to customize with more sensors. . .In addition, it could be used in a "limited reservoir" setup.

But thanks for beating to death the point about limited reservoirs and their benefit to our community, I know that I learned a few things from your information.

Peace

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10023328#post10023328 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baja_hammer2003
I have a oceanus atlas pro and there is a float sensor in my main tank if my water level raise`s it shuts the top off circuit off if my sump water level raise`s it shuts the top off circuit off if my sump water level gets to low it shuts top off circuit off i also have it hooked up to my neptune controller that oceanus controller sends a signal to neptune controller of a high or low water condition and pages me it also has dual solenoids built in with a test button so i can test each solenoid these top off`s are the best there is no comparison against a tunze crumble top is 1 of those people that hate change keep filling your top off container cumble top

The design is (at least last I checked) SEVERALY FLAWED. I mentioned this to the owner last year but am not sure if he fixed the problem. He had no idea that this was even a failure mode (though it is fairly obvious).

There are several ways it could be worked around (by use of extra latching circuits or timers). Anyway...

The funny part is that these things showed up not long after several of us posted schematics with the listed functionality. The irony is that a few of them had the same flaw. Makes you wonder where the circuit came from

The FLAW:

HIGH WATER SHUT OFF:

1) Water rises and trips the FLOAT
2) Return pump shuts off
3) Water drops because return pump is off
4) Return pump turns back on because float has now dropped
5) Water rises again and trips FLOAT
6) Return pump shuts off
7) this happens until the return pump burns up due to short cycling, or enough water evaporates to break the cycle. But wait the ATO will continiu to operate during the oscillations.

LOW WATER SHUT OFF:

1) ATO runs out of water
2) Sump runs DRY
3) RETURN PUMP protection kicks in
4) Pump shuts off
5) water drains from plumbing
6) protection float rises due to drainback
7) RETURN PUMP restarts
8) Sump runs Dry
9) RETURN PUMP protection kicks in...
10) This cycle continies until the return pump burns up.

So those FAILSAFES are from from FAILSAFES. BY definition they are far from failsafe.

 

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10023581#post10023581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by old95er
Thanks for your passionate dedication to your setup. You have made your point many times, and I think we all appreciate your perspective.

The Thread is about the comparison between two controllers, not between a limited reservoir versus contiunuous feed.

The thread also finished a couple of months ago and you revived it focused on direct to RO/DI by saying things like:

"I don't understand this statement." referring to not understanding how hooking directly to an RO/DI is a problem.

"RO direct to the tank is likely a cause for concern, if you do not have a device that can monitor and adjust." -- which isn't true, it's a concern regardless.

and

"All of the tank crash stories seem to be related to mechanical float valves, and unregulated Kalk dispensers." -- to which I pointed out there are plenty out there that aren't related to said things, and in fact are related to perfectly functioning topoffs.

It looks like the oceanus feature for shutting things down in a low water state would actually work to cycle the pump back on once the topoff water restored some volume to the sump. This does not appear to be protection for anything except the return pump. A blocked drain from the display would have the effect of lowering the sump water (pumped to display and overflow onto floor) at which time the return pump would be cut. Depending on whether or not you have a check valve, some back flow to the sump would occur, raising the level of water, turning on the pump, lowering the water, adding water to sump from ATO -- and on and on all while you are enjoying the beach during vacation

I think they make a model that utilizes a limited reservoir -- which would be the better choice, IMO.

 

[baja_hammer2003]

The way it works is if there is a high water condition in my main display tank it shuts down top off circuit and my main pumps sounds alarm with flashing light for 15 minutes then checks to see if the water level are back to normal in my sump and in my main tank before starting pumps back up and it also sends a signal to my neptune controller to page me. The same is true for the water in sump high or low you will get a signal. And with dual solenoids with a test button and port i check them once a week and water changes are easy it has a manuel fill button i put my 55 gallon trash can next to my sump pull the float assembly and throw in the tube coming from my ro/di push the fill button and it fills the container and shuts off when its full. Then i also use it to remove water i have a power head hooked to a hose going to my drain unplug main pumps and plug in power head shuts pump off when sump hits low level switch i`m lazy hate watching water move from 1 container to the next sounds a alarm when done.

 

[abark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10012904#post10012904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by old95er


What happens if your suggested limited container system fails, and the water does not get topped off, the Tunze does not control the return pump the way that Oceanus does, so you could have no water in the sump, which would stop filtration, and the pump could burn up, which could burn down the house.

This completely false. First, the controller senses that if it calls for water and it is not being filled a low resivoir light comes on and the the pump shuts down untill the unit is reset. I actually had this happen the other day, I cheked my sump and saw the water level slightly low and the unit had the blinking red light on. Second, a 9V DC pump is highly unlikely to 'burn up' and cause a catastrophic failure, at least not compared to 120V AC pump.

 

[manderx]

by baja_hammer2003
...keep filling your top off container cumble top

who says you can't have the topoff container autofill from the RO? just put a float valve in it, and put the whole RO/DI on a timer to be on once a day just long enough to fill the container. solves TDS creep at the same time too.