Odd quarantine situation in

[percula99]

So, to preface this situation let me start by saying I recently had knee replacement surgery followed ten days later by a broken leg, so going down to the dasement where my tank is has not been possible.

I QT everything that goes into my tank for four plus weeks. I even ran my tank fallow for over two months. So how did ich find its way back in? I was able to catch almost every fish and have them in quarantine except for two small chromis. That was now seven weeks ago. I am soon to get the go ahead to start physio and hopefully I can navigate stairs again so I can go see my reef.

So the question is if the chromis are still fine can I consider them quarantined or not? I know conventional thinking says no but what do you think?

 

[pyithar]

i'm afraid you'll have to take every fish out of the system including the chromis. as long as there're fish in the system, the ich life cycle will keep going. i would catch the remaining two chromis, treat them in a separate quarantine tank and start the fallow period of the system. good luck.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I was told in my LFS about an experienced local reefer who religiously put everything through at least 10 weeks QT, fish, coral, inverts....everything. He added a hippo tang, did TTM, then copper treatment, then 4 weeks QT, put it in his DT and it got ich. Apparently he was devastated and almost quit the hobby over it, the LFS manager was saying he's a big muscly guy but was almost in tears talking about it due to his passion for the hobby. He was saying what is the point.....he spends so much time and effort putting every single thing through QT and ich still crept in somehow. He was then faced with a decision of pulling apart his expensively assembled reef to catch all his fish or hope they could fight it off. He is on the process of feeding them up to fight it off. At the end of the day I think you have to weigh up the situation, if you can catch the chromis and are willing to go AT LEAST 72 days fallow then go for it, this by no means guarantees you will be free from ich however. If you have a reef that is fully bonded together or a lot of expensive corals that you do not want to risk stressing then you have a decision to make. I am currently going through my second fallow period in 6 months and if ich gets in again I will not be pulling apart my reef to try and catch all my fish.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Sorry about your knee and leg How are the fish being fed if they are downstairs? Agree with pyithar on treatment..all fish must come out of the tank to break the cycle. While four weeks is a good starting point for quarantine it may not be long enough for ich to present.

 

[percula99]

Well I agree with you about the fact the chromis are not properly quarantined yet. How much is enough? There is a theory that no matter how much you quarantine ich will always be present. Anyone heard that one before? I really can't see myself not quarantining again however as there is too much at stake not too. Tearing the tank apart is not an option due to my knees and the amount of corals. Last time I drained the tank and caught the fish when they came out looking for deeper water.

As for feeding the fish my wife has been maintaining the tank for the past two months and she hates doing it so I can't tell you how many arguments that has caused.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Well I agree with you about the fact the chromis are not properly quarantined yet. How much is enough? There is a theory that no matter how much you quarantine ich will always be present. Anyone heard that one before? I really can't see myself not quarantining again however as there is too much at stake not too. Tearing the tank apart is not an option due to my knees and the amount of corals. Last time I drained the tank and caught the fish when they came out looking for deeper water.

We've all heard that "theory" and it's simply is not true. It's an argument that has been going on for years. Those that continue to have ich in their tanks have not properly treated the fish and/or left the tank fallow long enough to break the lifecycle. If you would like there are quite a few stickies at the top of the forum on this topic.

As for feeding the fish my wife has been maintaining the tank for the past two months and she hates doing it so I can't tell you how many arguments that has caused.

You're braver than I

 

[Perth_reefer]

We've all heard that "theory" and it's simply is not true. It's an argument that has been going on for years. Those that continue to have ich in their tanks have not properly treated the fish and/or left the tank fallow long enough to break the lifecycle. If you would like there are quite a few stickies at the top of the forum on this topic.

I agree with you that ich can be irradicated from a system, however I don't think that there is a hard and fast rule for this. This 72 days fallow statement is getting thrown around way too much, some people dont even know what it means anymore, I saw one post with someone saying all fish need to be in QT for 72 days because that is the life cycle of ich......completely the wrong information. 72 days fallow will most likely rid ich from your DT but it's not guaranteed.....TTM, copper and hypo will most likely remove ich from fish if executed properly but they are not guaranteed. There is always that slim chance ich will creep into your system somehow, not matter how stringent you are with quarantine.
If it gets in, I am now in the camp that you deal with it in situ, ripping an established reef apart to catch and stress out already sick fish is not a great idea. Yes ich will be in your system but fish can fight ich and will survive IF they are healthy enough, so that means well fed and not subjected to too much stress. By feeding well and providing a stress free environment you should very rarely encounter ich, even if your DT has been exposed to it.

 

[Deinonych]

Nothing is guaranteed in this hobby except that you will spend money and fish will die.

The 72-day rule is based on a study by Colorni & Burgess, in which they noted that this period was the longest observed period before tomont excystment. This is viewed as the extreme end of the life cycle, as most strains follow a 2-3 week lifecycle.

Dealing with fish diseases is about risk mitigation. If you practice good biosecurity and use TTM to eliminate crypto, the likelihood that the parasite will infect your system is astronomically slim. Copper and CP only affect the free-swimming infective stage of the parasite, which is much less deterministic.

Some people can get away with "ich management," by keeping their fish well-fed and healthy. I personally would never advocate it, as I feel that we have a responsibility to provide the best conditions for our livestock, especially since they have been removed from their natural habitat. YMMV.

 

[Perth_reefer]

The 72 day statement is based one one set of results from one study....while it is very likely that ich will have died off by this stage it is not guaranteed, there are people on this site making that statement that 72 days guarantees ich to be gone and I don't think this statement should be made, as you say nothing is guaranteed.
I agree, QT your fish without exception, I do this as an opportunity to feed fish up as much as treat any diseases.
With regards to ich management.....if this was your reef:-

RCfulltankshotSM by kenpau01, on Flickr


Would you rip it apart to catch all fish to treat? We have a responsibilty to the corals as well as the fish and you could quite easily fatally stress every coral and fish in your system by dismantling an established reef. IMO every situation is different, the rule should not be to absolutely remove all fish and go fallow for 72 days in every situation....because every situation is different and it is possible to manage ich if you are experienced enough.

 

[Deinonych]

With regards to ich management.....if this was your reef:-

Would you rip it apart to catch all fish to treat?

Is that your tank? I would hope that I never find myself in that situation. If I were, I'm not sure what I would do. Everything I acquire - fish and inverts - goes through a thorough quarantine. If by some remote chance disease makes it into my DT, then I'd have to reassess whether I'd want to continue in this hobby.

So, what happened that you are having to go through another fallow period?

 

[Perth_reefer]

Noooo...not my tank, one day maybe! I've only been up and running about 7 months with my latest system. I introduced ich into my tank by not putting a fish through QT that I had been assured had been through QT already and was disease free, my mistake for trusting the wrong person. Anyway I went 73 days fallow on the advice from here, put fish back into the tank that had been through TTM and copper and 5 days later ich again. Obviously it looks like I didn't do something right along the way, but I'm not an isolated case, theres been a few reports of this happening lately, especially with tangs.

 

[percula99]

So my tank was very mature with lots of corals and fish. I did not want to tear it apart so I drained it of water and caught the fish when they came out looking for deeper water. Now I had not added anything to my tank for twenty month prior to the ich outbreak and I had QT'd everything before adding it to the tank. I had heard of the theory of keeping fish well fed and stress free, which mine were. At first the heniochus came down with ich then a short while later the powder blue got. I left it alone hoping they would recover and for a while it stayed like that. Then,quickly other fish started getting sick and ich exploded in the tank. I lost the angel, heniochus, powder blue, flame angel, bicolour copperband and six chromis in a few days. I saved, and the naso, desjardini, two ocellaris clowns and three chromis. See video below for a before video.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Now I had not added anything to my tank for twenty month prior to the ich outbreak and I had QT'd everything before adding it to the tank.

This is the thing. Even going through the strictest quarantine sometimes ich seems to find a way through.
It's a tough decision to make if you have an established reef, I know that I lost 17 out of 20 fish when I moved them to treat for ich, I'm certain the stress of me trying to catch them while they were sick made the situation even worse.
But it sounds like you lost you fish in the tank before you tried to remove them, is that right?
I've heard from a few reliable sources that they have fed up their fish which have managed to battle ich of, once they do it is possible for them to develop a resistance to it, but you have to win the battle first. You're luckily in a way that your rockwork allowed you to drain the tank like that, it would be very possible that fish could hide in the rockwork and get trapped there.

 

[percula99]

Yeah, all the fish that died did so in the display. All fish that I managed to capture have recovered in quarantine. The two chromis that are still in the display tank would not come out when I drained it. When I can go back downstairs I plan on draining the display again and hope I can get them out this time.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Yeah, all the fish that died did so in the display. All fish that I managed to capture have recovered in quarantine. The two chromis that are still in the display tank would not come out when I drained it. When I can go back downstairs I plan on draining the display again and hope I can get them out this time.

If you're planning to go fallow then you'll have to get them out...good luck!!

 

[percula99]

UPDATE.... I finally got permission from my surgeon to navigate stairs so I made it down to the basement to see my reef. The tank doesn't look too bad, but there they are...two little chromis that have thrown a monkey wrench into all my plans for over two months now. I decided to try and drain the tank again to get them out. I dug holes in the gravel so there would be places of deeper water. All my shrimp were sitting in those. Gotta keep them safe too. Still no chromis!!! My wife said we should try putting in some food to draw them out. Sure enough, it worked, seeing as they had not been fed in nine weeks the food was too much to resist. They must have been eating pods the whole time. Well, they are in QT now with my other fish. 72 days from now, on September 22nd they will go back in the display. If I had been able to catch the chromis at the same time as all the other fish I would almost be ready to add them all back into the display.