Ok, I'm confused now and need some help.

[spleify]

I posted this in the Reef Chemistry forum, but it was suggested that maybe I try here instead.


Hi all, I have a few questions here.
Here is my problem:
"pale" or "pastel" looking SPS, last week sudden STN on a coral that has been in the tank for 3 months and growing and looking good. I put beautiful bright corals in, they turn pale and brown on me.

Here is what I am doing:
For starters, the tank I am talking about is about 75 gallons of total water volume, mostly SPS and some LPS.
Reef Crystals salt, dosing Randy's two part.
Also dosing VSV and AA's(one of the questions to follow)
I run GAC and Phosban(bulk reef supply GFO) in Phosban reactors. Change GAC every 4 weeks, and change out about 5 TBLS of GFO every 6 weeks. I do run a refugium with lots of chaeto, but don't get great growth out of it, but it always looks healthy.

Tank Params
Ca target 450 usually between 420 and 450 Salifert
Mg target 1350 usually around 1300-1350 Salifert
Alk target 8 usually between 6-8? (one of the questions to follow) API
NO3 between 2-3 Salifert
PO4 0 Salifert
Salinity 1.024 Calibrated refractometer
Temp 79-81 Glass floating thermometer
PH 8.15-8.3 depending on time of day Pinpoint PH monitor

Ok, so now that is out of the way.

Because I am Dosing VSV, mainly for the purpose of keeping my NO3 and PO4 down, and to try and maximize color of my corals, it was my understanding that keeping my ALK in the lower natural sea water range was most beneficial. I am using an API test kit for my DKH, when I just tested my newly mixed up salt water I am getting a reading of 6dkh. It was always my understanding that Reef Crystals was kind of known for there higher alk levels??

I feed like mad, probably to the equivalent of 3-4 cubes of food per day, some frozen store bought types and a home made food, modeled after Melev and some others, and a few pinches of a variety of dried foods.

I am dosing Amino acids(Zeovit), I have to be honest though I don't know why or even what they really do. I have been dosing AA's for a couple of months adjusting up an down, and have yet to see a benefit of the addition. I have only read that when running a ultra low nutrient system(ULNS), that it is important to add amino acids to the tank. I started with the recommended amount and have adjusted up and down from there.

In conclusion:
What do AA's do, and why should I continue dosing them??
If my test kit is off, for dkh, would this be a contributing factor as to why my corals are pale, pastel and brown??

Ok sorry for the super long story, but I wanted to give as much info on the system as possible.
And and all help is greatly appreciated, please ask any questions you may have as I am anxious to resolve these issues.

Thanks

Spleify

 

[Diveshaman]

Water flow, light, and your target marks seem ok. I tend to keep my kH a little on the higher side but that is me. Ca 420-440, kH 10-12, Mg 1250-1350, pH 8.2-8-4, temp 80-82. If you think it is color that is fading but yet you are still having the polyps extension I would suggest changing location to higher in water column with stronger water flow. I don't know about the AA's so can't comment on those. When you say Ultra low nutrient system are you talking something like polyp labs Reef Fuels?

 

[reefer334]

First I would double check all pf your tests with a different test kits.

I think 6 KH is a little low, I have noticed STN on some of my corals at that KH.

Temp could be the problem to, what do you check your temp with?
Salinity is a little low to , my SPS look there best at 1.026.


HTH

Chris

 

[moo0o]

i keep my salinity at 1.026 and yeah, i agree my SPS have never looked better.

if you are dosing VSV, you shouldn't be using GFO, its counter productive, the bacteria you want to colonize is competing against the GFO, therefore you might not be getting the full benefits of vodka dosing.

if you doubt AA does anything, try not dosing it to see what happens. I have been dosing AA and i too have not seen any difference but since its become such a habit for me now i don't really care and dose anyway. Maybe when i have more time to be observant ill stop dosing to see what happens.

I dont believe that DKH being too low is the problem with your colors, usually its phosphates and nitrates, swinging temps/salinity that effect color. STN happens when DKH is too low, and burnt tips meaning DKH is too high. As far as i know those are the only things that DKH effects.

Question though, how are you getting 6dkh when you are using reef crystals? at 1.024 you should be getting around 9-11?

 

[lilchris]

You want to show some traces of NO3 and PO4. I would stop dosing VSV for a while. Also, take the GFO offline and just run the refugium for NO3 and PO4 export. Your colors should come back when you start to see some traces of PO4 and NO3.(not much though) I had the same problem and stop the carbon dosing and the colors came back.
AA I honestly don't know. I don't use it.

 

[onano]

Maybe its me but I think you are doing things are are couterproductive. You are dosing Vodka but using GFO..they are working against each other. You are trying to run low nutrient but you feed more in a day than I do in a week. I run a 75 and feed about a dimes worth of Rod's daily. Check your alk test kit. I never got any batch of reefcrystals ever to mix below 10dkh at 35% salinity. I would stop dosing everything (keep your GFO going because it may stress out the corals if you take it suddenly offline) and feed 3 -4 times per week. Monitor your levels and see what changes you may be surprised to find that nothing changes and your corals respond the way you want. The best thing I ever did was to stop dosing 2 part and other supplements and switch to kalk. Sometimes the simple things work.

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13485600#post13485600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Diveshaman
Water flow, light, and your target marks seem ok. I tend to keep my kH a little on the higher side but that is me. Ca 420-440, kH 10-12, Mg 1250-1350, pH 8.2-8-4, temp 80-82. If you think it is color that is fading but yet you are still having the polyps extension I would suggest changing location to higher in water column with stronger water flow. I don't know about the AA's so can't comment on those. When you say Ultra low nutrient system are you talking something like polyp labs Reef Fuels?

Thanks to everyone for the reply, I will try and answer all questions and look forward to more feed back as I am anxious to resolve this issue.

For starters my salinity is 1.026 ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be 1.026. That was a typo, and obviously a big mistake on my part.

As for flow I have 2 Maxi-Jet mods(1600GPH each), a Closed Loop with 4 outlets on a SCWD pushing about 1200GPH and the return pump at about 600GPH that gives me about 83X turn over in the display.
Lighting is a single 250W MH Hamilton in a Lumenarc Mini. 2, 24W T5 HO for actinic supplementation. The Hamilton is getting pretty old, but still gives off "pretty" good PAR readings.

It is not necessarily JUST the corals at the top, or JUST the corals at the bottom. It is about 90% of the corals, in various spots around the tank. So I have ruled out flow and lighting, though admittedly I believe the Hamilton needs to be replaced(and I am looking for a new bulb now).

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13485663#post13485663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefer334
First I would double check all pf your tests with a different test kits.

I think 6 KH is a little low, I have noticed STN on some of my corals at that KH.

Temp could be the problem to, what do you check your temp with?
Salinity is a little low to , my SPS look there best at 1.026.


HTH

Chris

Thanks Chris, again my mistake on the salinity, it is 1.026.

I agree that 6 KH is to low, I had a buddy test it and got the same result 6-6.5 very low. I use a glass floater thermometer, which I think is the most accurate, I have two floating(stuck with a suction cup on the side) and get the same temp on both.

Though I would post some pics of the tank in question too.

And here is the link to my complete build thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1343381

Spleify

 

[kev apsley]

the one thing I've noticed right off the bat dosing AA's is better PE, I believe it helps to a degree with coloration but the main strength of AA's is they trigger a feeding response in the the polyps opening them up more to feed

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13486050#post13486050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by moo0o
i keep my salinity at 1.026 and yeah, i agree my SPS have never looked better.

if you are dosing VSV, you shouldn't be using GFO, its counter productive, the bacteria you want to colonize is competing against the GFO, therefore you might not be getting the full benefits of vodka dosing.

if you doubt AA does anything, try not dosing it to see what happens. I have been dosing AA and i too have not seen any difference but since its become such a habit for me now i don't really care and dose anyway. Maybe when i have more time to be observant ill stop dosing to see what happens.

I don't believe that DKH being too low is the problem with your colors, usually its phosphates and nitrates, swinging temps/salinity that effect color. STN happens when DKH is too low, and burnt tips meaning DKH is too high. As far as i know those are the only things that DKH effects.

Question though, how are you getting 6dkh when you are using reef crystals? at 1.024 you should be getting around 9-11?

Now as for the GFO, I did take it offline yesterday. I was thinking the same thing and after reading COUNTLESS threads, and talking to a buddy(miwoodar) of mine I thought it would be a good Idea to pull it off line.I will give it a few weeks and see what happens.

As for stopping the AA's, I want to give the no GFO a few weeks and see what happens. I don't like doing more than one thing at a time because you never really know what did what. I have slowly started to bring up the alk in the tank to 8 KH to see if that has any effect, and I will start to up my dosing of Randys two part to try and keep my levels a little higher and a little more stable.

I thought the same thing about the high alk on RC, I have used it for years and I used to always check it it was always up around 10-11, I actually stopped checking it a while ago because it was ALWAYS so consistent, but when all of this started happening, I thought "maybe I should check the alk in the new salt water".

I have another bucket of RC(though I bought it at the same time) I will mix up 5 gallons of that bucket and check it.


Thanks again all

Spleify

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13486135#post13486135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lilchris
You want to show some traces of NO3 and PO4. I would stop dosing VSV for a while. Also, take the GFO offline and just run the refugium for NO3 and PO4 export. Your colors should come back when you start to see some traces of PO4 and NO3.(not much though) I had the same problem and stop the carbon dosing and the colors came back.
AA I honestly don't know. I don't use it.

Thanks for the help! I hope you got things back on track with you're problems.

As I stated I have taken the GFO off line and will hold off on stopping the VSV also until I see if the GFO makes a difference or not.

Thanks

Spleify

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13486247#post13486247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onano
Maybe its me but I think you are doing things are are couterproductive. You are dosing Vodka but using GFO..they are working against each other. You are trying to run low nutrient but you feed more in a day than I do in a week. I run a 75 and feed about a dimes worth of Rod's daily. Check your alk test kit. I never got any batch of reefcrystals ever to mix below 10dkh at 35% salinity. I would stop dosing everything (keep your GFO going because it may stress out the corals if you take it suddenly offline) and feed 3 -4 times per week. Monitor your levels and see what changes you may be surprised to find that nothing changes and your corals respond the way you want. The best thing I ever did was to stop dosing 2 part and other supplements and switch to kalk. Sometimes the simple things work.

Agreed on the counterproductivity of the GFO and VSV, but I have always run GFO on this system and I have only been doing the VSV for a few months now.

As for the feeding, I feel I am feeding the appropriate amount for the carbon dosing I am doing. If you notice I have 0 PO4 and 2 NO3, I am not concenred about the amount of food I am feeding, I have 11 of the fattest happiest fish you have ever seen. Feeding 3-4 times a week on my system would surely pose more of a problem then what I am doing now.

Thanks for you're opinions.

Spleify

 

[spleify]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13487153#post13487153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
the one thing I've noticed right off the bat dosing AA's is better PE, I believe it helps to a degree with coloration but the main strength of AA's is they trigger a feeding response in the the polyps opening them up more to feed

Hi kev, agreed I do see and have good PE on MOST if not all SPS. I think i understand too that you want to dose AA's right before you feed to trigger better PE and better eating habbits.

Someone also suggested that I stop dosing Randy's 2 part and get a ca reactor. I wish I could but there is no room for one. On my other tank I am dripping kalk with my top off but I have more room with that tank as it is an in-wall(little red house).

Thanks for all the help folks, any and all questions and suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.

Spleify

 

[Canadian]

I've been having very similar problems on a smaller BB tank and I've run the same questions through my own head. The big difference between me and you is that my PE isn't great on some corals but others are fine (from all my research PE is a poor indicator of health but I can't let it go) and I'm running T5s only.

I was getting 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate on my tests (Elos). I was dosing vodka and simultaneously running GFO in a phosban reactor (and carbon in the media chamber of my Deltec MCE600 skimmer). I was feeding like crazy and started dosing amino acids without noticing much of a difference.

My attempt at a solution has been to discontinue dosing vodka, feed my fish more, dose AA and feed coral frenzy (obviously I have chosen to ignore the scientific rigor of control). I am also strongly considering taking the GFO offline. I have 4 green chromis on order (to add to a 6-line and banggai - recently removed a flame angel just in case it was responsible for nipping and causing some of the poor PE) in hopes that more fish poop will improve things. My plan is to reintroduce the GFO if I start getting measurable PO4 or noticing signs of algae growth. I'm going to start dosing AA just before I add coral frenzy as was mentioned in a post above.

If I start finding some improvement I'll let you know. I have my suspicion that discontinuing the vodka dosing is going to make the biggest difference.

 

[spleify]

Thanks for you're input Canadian, and I am sorry to hear you are having the same issues.

I definitely agree with the "more fish is better" theory. I have 11 fish that are fat and happy. I will continue to dose the VSV as I don't want to do to many things at once. I just ordered some Coral Frenzy my self! I am excited to see how that stuff works, I have heard lots of good things about it.

Andrew, please keep me posted as to what you find, and how things turn out for you. I will keep this thread posted as to my discoveries also.

Thanks

Spleify