OMG 40 clipperton angelfish, Holocanthus limbaughi,
- Thread starter espocrespo
- Start date
cortez marine
In Memoriam
Looking back;
Holacanthus sp. would have been the thing to declare but the paperwork was already prepared by land based Mexican associates ahead of time. [ which did save time] Should I have insisted on overruling them? Maybe, but then again, in the rush of things, this was just not seen as the central fact of the trip...until now.
We packed all nite and drive to the airport in the early am... and made it just in time.
The swine flu thing had just hit and the shipment was in doubt until the bitter end.
Looking back, sure, things would be done differently but much of this is not so easy to deduce and figure out.
Unlike Manila that has it all on templated autopilot, we do not get shipments out so often to establish a good routine.
Holacanthus sp. so easy and yet.....so not er...done.
Steve
Holacanthus sp. would have been the thing to declare but the paperwork was already prepared by land based Mexican associates ahead of time. [ which did save time] Should I have insisted on overruling them? Maybe, but then again, in the rush of things, this was just not seen as the central fact of the trip...until now.
We packed all nite and drive to the airport in the early am... and made it just in time.
The swine flu thing had just hit and the shipment was in doubt until the bitter end.
Looking back, sure, things would be done differently but much of this is not so easy to deduce and figure out.
Unlike Manila that has it all on templated autopilot, we do not get shipments out so often to establish a good routine.
Holacanthus sp. so easy and yet.....so not er...done.
Steve
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Steve:
First, let em say that I applaud your initiative and your experience. However, in this case, I think your actions were foolish, questionable, and might be considered by many as deceitful.
First and foremost, please allow me to ask some questions, that I am hoping you can answer. First and foremost, why in the world would you be so subversive in your declaration? Why put Holocanthus passer when they are not? Why label them fish as blue passers, if they were not? I'm sorry, but "my Mexicans associates did the paperwork, and I didnt want to correct them" is a poor and absurd excuse, in my mind. You had the opportunity to import this species for the first time in a very long time, and this was your procedure? I have to say, too, I dont blame USFWS one tiny little bit for the refusal. At gross appearance, your actions were extermely deceitful and misleading, and that is the actions of smugglers. I am certainly not calling you a smuggler (based on your experience and previous activities), but I am saying you acted exactly as one. You tried to bring in a species of fish, while labelling it, and declaring it as another. That is fraudulent. I cant fathom why you would do this?
Weher were these fish collected? Did your Mexican colleague think you were steaming out to Clipperton for some Passers? I also find that a bit hard to believe.
You say, looking abck, you wouldve put "Holocanthus sp.". Why? Why not put "Holocanthus limbaughi"? That woudl be correct.
I hate to say it, but something seems very fishy in this whole matter. I dont understand why you are and would be so unwilling to decalre these animals for exactly what they are.
First, let em say that I applaud your initiative and your experience. However, in this case, I think your actions were foolish, questionable, and might be considered by many as deceitful.
First and foremost, please allow me to ask some questions, that I am hoping you can answer. First and foremost, why in the world would you be so subversive in your declaration? Why put Holocanthus passer when they are not? Why label them fish as blue passers, if they were not? I'm sorry, but "my Mexicans associates did the paperwork, and I didnt want to correct them" is a poor and absurd excuse, in my mind. You had the opportunity to import this species for the first time in a very long time, and this was your procedure? I have to say, too, I dont blame USFWS one tiny little bit for the refusal. At gross appearance, your actions were extermely deceitful and misleading, and that is the actions of smugglers. I am certainly not calling you a smuggler (based on your experience and previous activities), but I am saying you acted exactly as one. You tried to bring in a species of fish, while labelling it, and declaring it as another. That is fraudulent. I cant fathom why you would do this?
Weher were these fish collected? Did your Mexican colleague think you were steaming out to Clipperton for some Passers? I also find that a bit hard to believe.
You say, looking abck, you wouldve put "Holocanthus sp.". Why? Why not put "Holocanthus limbaughi"? That woudl be correct.
I hate to say it, but something seems very fishy in this whole matter. I dont understand why you are and would be so unwilling to decalre these animals for exactly what they are.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
return of goods
return of goods
Corals are taken on fine distinctions I guess. So the distinction is there. Why give them back?
Public aquariums now get some free fish that they could not otherwise obtain.
Can we write it off I wonder?
The financial cost of the effort, denial of income to divers, stress, struggle and risk are not ascribed a value in this equation.
A hair-split can be used to ruin people if decided to or can be used to give fair warning which would be an equally good deterrant..... if doing good is the issue.
I would like a clear list of procedure for such an expedition for next time if there will be a next time.
It would also make a good joint expedition with some public aquarium people on board with nice letters and permits in hand.
Perhaps a French aquarium!
This may have squelched our desire to try again if we cannot establish a doable check list ahead of time and if we are allowed to survive this..
Steve
return of goods
Corals are taken on fine distinctions I guess. So the distinction is there. Why give them back?
Public aquariums now get some free fish that they could not otherwise obtain.
Can we write it off I wonder?
The financial cost of the effort, denial of income to divers, stress, struggle and risk are not ascribed a value in this equation.
A hair-split can be used to ruin people if decided to or can be used to give fair warning which would be an equally good deterrant..... if doing good is the issue.
I would like a clear list of procedure for such an expedition for next time if there will be a next time.
It would also make a good joint expedition with some public aquarium people on board with nice letters and permits in hand.
Perhaps a French aquarium!
This may have squelched our desire to try again if we cannot establish a doable check list ahead of time and if we are allowed to survive this..
Steve
cortez marine
In Memoriam
"I'm sorry, but "my Mexicans associates did the paperwork, and I didnt want to correct them" is a poor and absurd excuse, in my mind. "
In your mind?
So? Have you ever had a Mexican partner that you disagreed with at the last minute? When the dye is cast and its too late to change things?
There are a number of things I disagree with in this venture, most of them centering around partners behavoir.
Its why I prefer the diving and collecting to the other part of the business.
I guess our options were;
1. cancel the shipment
2. Proceed and hope that the situation can be worked out.
Steve
In your mind?
So? Have you ever had a Mexican partner that you disagreed with at the last minute? When the dye is cast and its too late to change things?
There are a number of things I disagree with in this venture, most of them centering around partners behavoir.
Its why I prefer the diving and collecting to the other part of the business.
I guess our options were;
1. cancel the shipment
2. Proceed and hope that the situation can be worked out.
Steve
zemuron114
In Memoriam
It was a noble effort indeed, but loosely put together it seems. I agree 100%, the business part of it, especially if numerous people are involved all wanting a piece of the pie makes things drastically more complicated and in the end, as it played out here, hear breaking and wallet breaking.
Fish and wildlife is very very easy to work with, atleast here in Honolulu. As long as you are up front with them, and ask them "OK, how exactly do i do this?" they will sit down and map it out for you so you wont get in trouble, and they actually very much appreciate it because it makes their job easier and they are aware of the importation ahead of time. Im going through this now trying to import black coral (dead) because it is under the Appendix II. And to make things even more complicated is it's coming from the Marshalls which doesn't follow CITES so in leu of CITES permits i need permission from the Marshallese government. But F&W is more than happy to help me as i have a meeting with them on Tuesday.
It seems you intentially tried to "get away" with it by labeling them Blue Passer. Which in the grand scheme of things looks like you were deceitful.
how hard would it be for the permits and than just to go directly from clipperton to California? It seems that Mexico is just a hassle in all accounts, and could be avoided if needed. If it is legal there to collect say even 20-30 angels, get the permits and bring them directly from Clipperton to the States...
I dont think this experience should be considered a failure, but as a learning experience. not many people have tried doing this, and trying a few things myself that no one has done before is part of the learning process. Most things can be done with some research and pre-planning.
Good luck on your next trip!
Fish and wildlife is very very easy to work with, atleast here in Honolulu. As long as you are up front with them, and ask them "OK, how exactly do i do this?" they will sit down and map it out for you so you wont get in trouble, and they actually very much appreciate it because it makes their job easier and they are aware of the importation ahead of time. Im going through this now trying to import black coral (dead) because it is under the Appendix II. And to make things even more complicated is it's coming from the Marshalls which doesn't follow CITES so in leu of CITES permits i need permission from the Marshallese government. But F&W is more than happy to help me as i have a meeting with them on Tuesday.
It seems you intentially tried to "get away" with it by labeling them Blue Passer. Which in the grand scheme of things looks like you were deceitful.
how hard would it be for the permits and than just to go directly from clipperton to California? It seems that Mexico is just a hassle in all accounts, and could be avoided if needed. If it is legal there to collect say even 20-30 angels, get the permits and bring them directly from Clipperton to the States...
I dont think this experience should be considered a failure, but as a learning experience. not many people have tried doing this, and trying a few things myself that no one has done before is part of the learning process. Most things can be done with some research and pre-planning.
Good luck on your next trip!
myerst2
Active member
First and foremost. Congrats on following your dream about finding and collecting where others rarely if ever do!!! Selling the fish in reality probably doesn't matter to you, except to cover your costs. Hopefully you have learned from this and will go again with everything in order.
So 3 questions?
Do you plan to go back and when?
Any fines or penalities that you face?
How much would one of these beauties cost me at the retail level? Thanks, T
So 3 questions?
Do you plan to go back and when?
Any fines or penalities that you face?
How much would one of these beauties cost me at the retail level? Thanks, T
Terra Ferma
New member
"how hard would it be for the permits and than just to go directly from clipperton to California?"
From San Diego, Clipperton is roughly a 10 day boat ride. So 20 days of fuel, plus a 10 day trip at sea for the Clipperton Angels.
From San Diego, Clipperton is roughly a 10 day boat ride. So 20 days of fuel, plus a 10 day trip at sea for the Clipperton Angels.
jmaneyapanda
Commencing hatred
Whats there to disagree about? You collected Clippertons angels, not Passers. So, why in the world would you try to import them as passers? Your solution was to try and illegally bring them in? Thats atrocious.
In the previous posts, you have made even more excuses for this. Swine flu, a books casual reference as them as "blue passers", lack of discretion and leeway, some bizarre coral reference? Unpaid divers, joint expeditions with the French? What is the point of all this?
I still dont understand why you have been and are so indignant to simply be forthcoming with the USFWS about the facts of these fish? As Zemuron said, they are quite easy to work with, in my opinion, provided you are honest.
To act is if some great injustice was conducted, or you have been treated unfairly in this venture. I dont see that. I see that you tried to sneak in some fish, for some reason. I dont know why, but I am beginning to speculate wildly, and it isnt a pretty picture.
So what failed this time? I very simple and easy process, USFWS inspection. That is FAR easier than the steps you took. Why would this stop you from doing so again? It is all the same, until you ship them to the US. Then, just dont lie. Just say they are Holocanthus limbaughi. All this nonsense about permits in hand, checklists, etc is so beyond what stopped this shipment. You did not fail to get a permit. You failed to pass inspection because of dishonesty.
So, I dont expect you to answer this, as you havent answered my previous questions, but did you acquire a permit to collect these fish from the French government? Someone in this thread mentioned it was necessary. I dont know if thats true or not. But if you were required, I assume you did. I am I correct? If you did, then the only thing that prohibited you from getting these fish to the US LEGALLY wouldve been for you to correctly and legally identify the fish on your declaration of import. The fact that you (or your Mexican cohort- I dont care who) didnt, and purposefully tried to smuggle them in leads me to belive that this was more nefarious than suggested.
ccampbell57
Premium Member
The cost of the trip is pretty much a moot point in the fact that this was a monumental collection.
I feel bad that we are all overlooking the fact that NO one has done this before...NO ONE.
There is a matter of symantics on this and it sucks that the people that were in line to receive these fish are now stuck with their dreams and 2 pictures of some of the best looking fish to come out of the Baja.
I have been looking forward to this since last year and was hoping that we as a community would be in absolute awe of what has been accomplished. Come on...whale sharks??????? I want to see that pics, I want to hear the stories. For selfish reasons, I want those fish to get into our tanks.
Will this happen again? Does anyone want to pony up $50K?
Maybe these fish are supposed to stay in the Clipperton atol and be dreamed about.
Who knows...kudos Steve...I am sorry that this fairytale has a grim ending, but the story...oh my...
I feel bad that we are all overlooking the fact that NO one has done this before...NO ONE.
There is a matter of symantics on this and it sucks that the people that were in line to receive these fish are now stuck with their dreams and 2 pictures of some of the best looking fish to come out of the Baja.
I have been looking forward to this since last year and was hoping that we as a community would be in absolute awe of what has been accomplished. Come on...whale sharks??????? I want to see that pics, I want to hear the stories. For selfish reasons, I want those fish to get into our tanks.
Will this happen again? Does anyone want to pony up $50K?
Maybe these fish are supposed to stay in the Clipperton atol and be dreamed about.
Who knows...kudos Steve...I am sorry that this fairytale has a grim ending, but the story...oh my...
Vili_Shark
New member
I just cant believe these fish are not available....
They went for free to some public aquariums....damn!
They should change the name to US Fish & paper work, thats what they're about paper work, not eco system, not preserving nature, not anything but paper work.
Im sorry for you Steve, I hope that you wont lose the desire to go after the fish that nobody else can get and make them available for the industry.
They went for free to some public aquariums....damn!
They should change the name to US Fish & paper work, thats what they're about paper work, not eco system, not preserving nature, not anything but paper work.
Im sorry for you Steve, I hope that you wont lose the desire to go after the fish that nobody else can get and make them available for the industry.
Fish and Wildlife
Fish and Wildlife
Wow...what a story. I had heard the rumors of these angels coming in, along with more clarions, but had no idea what was going on.
I know that the Birch Aquarium in San Diego has about 6 clippertons from about a year ago. I am not sure how they got them, but I think I remember discussing a collection trip with one of the curators there Bob Burhams. Maybe he can let us know how they got them.
This is another unfortunate mark on the industry. Being in Los Angeles, we are really trying hard to work with agents and keep an open door policy with them. It's hard enough to do business, let alone give the agency reason to be constantly looking for illegal trade that we as the mainstream have nothing to do with.
We are importing directly from Mexico as well. When I went there to survey the approved dive sites, I saw amazing reefs and fish that are very abundant...all part of their national park reserve.
The fisheries in Mexico are very advanced and impressive in the way they have treated each permit. For each dive site approved, you have a list and qty of fish that are abundant enough to be collected.
After my trip there a couple months ago, I left with a feeling that we in the US are so far behind times compared to the efforts that the Mexicans have put in to make and develop a sustainable trade for their citizens that live near the ocean.
No question that trying to label the fish as something else in order to slip them through under a fish that is permitted. Dang....this just sucks. Mexico is trying to do the right thing, and some of the same people they are trying to help try to take advantage of the situation? Is that how this is going down? I wonder who these people are that are involved on the Mexican side. If it is who I think, then this should be the last time for them they should ever see an aquarium fish permit or license!
I know a few customers in Asia that are heavily invested in what I think could be this project. If their money is lost, that is going to directly effect how they do business with me, and others in the future.
As far as Steve goes....I have always considered him my friend and collegue. Not sure what to think about how this was all handled.....bummer on a personal level.
Fish and Wildlife
Wow...what a story. I had heard the rumors of these angels coming in, along with more clarions, but had no idea what was going on.
I know that the Birch Aquarium in San Diego has about 6 clippertons from about a year ago. I am not sure how they got them, but I think I remember discussing a collection trip with one of the curators there Bob Burhams. Maybe he can let us know how they got them.
This is another unfortunate mark on the industry. Being in Los Angeles, we are really trying hard to work with agents and keep an open door policy with them. It's hard enough to do business, let alone give the agency reason to be constantly looking for illegal trade that we as the mainstream have nothing to do with.
We are importing directly from Mexico as well. When I went there to survey the approved dive sites, I saw amazing reefs and fish that are very abundant...all part of their national park reserve.
The fisheries in Mexico are very advanced and impressive in the way they have treated each permit. For each dive site approved, you have a list and qty of fish that are abundant enough to be collected.
After my trip there a couple months ago, I left with a feeling that we in the US are so far behind times compared to the efforts that the Mexicans have put in to make and develop a sustainable trade for their citizens that live near the ocean.
No question that trying to label the fish as something else in order to slip them through under a fish that is permitted. Dang....this just sucks. Mexico is trying to do the right thing, and some of the same people they are trying to help try to take advantage of the situation? Is that how this is going down? I wonder who these people are that are involved on the Mexican side. If it is who I think, then this should be the last time for them they should ever see an aquarium fish permit or license!
I know a few customers in Asia that are heavily invested in what I think could be this project. If their money is lost, that is going to directly effect how they do business with me, and others in the future.
As far as Steve goes....I have always considered him my friend and collegue. Not sure what to think about how this was all handled.....bummer on a personal level.
e55MD
Member
This is a tragic end to an exciting adventure for Steve. I do not know him personally but I am familiar with people who do.
For those of you who want to criticize how all this happened, remind yourself that many rare and exciting specimens would not be available to us in the trade if not for people like him.
For those of you who want to criticize how all this happened, remind yourself that many rare and exciting specimens would not be available to us in the trade if not for people like him.
Clippertons
Clippertons
Let's not glamorize Steve in this context please.
Most of us know that Steve's real contribution to this industry was his work in the 80's working in the Philipines trying to rat out the cyanide trade and it's evils. He trained and educated many divers that did not know of the ill effects of using cyanide to collect fish.
We can respect Steve for many things he's done, but I am sure he would admit (well...I hope he would) that this is not his proudest moment.
Clippertons
Let's not glamorize Steve in this context please.
Most of us know that Steve's real contribution to this industry was his work in the 80's working in the Philipines trying to rat out the cyanide trade and it's evils. He trained and educated many divers that did not know of the ill effects of using cyanide to collect fish.
We can respect Steve for many things he's done, but I am sure he would admit (well...I hope he would) that this is not his proudest moment.
Vili_Shark
New member
Eric my friend,
I still think that Steve's doing what everybody else thought is impossible!
Who thought about Clarions with permits? and I do know for a fact that Fish&WL went nuts when they saw he got the permits!
Who ever imagined Clippertons?
There are many collectors out there, nobody had the guts to do it.
I still think that Steve's doing what everybody else thought is impossible!
Who thought about Clarions with permits? and I do know for a fact that Fish&WL went nuts when they saw he got the permits!
Who ever imagined Clippertons?
There are many collectors out there, nobody had the guts to do it.
aquaticvet1
.Registered Member
When the ex-president of AMDA, a livestock wholesaler, appears to become a possible poacher and smuggler for profit, the entire industry has a severe black eye and image erosion.
The personal journey and profits are not worth sacrificing the hobby and image for the rest of us !!!
I hope this gets resolved and the fish survive the delays.
Race
The personal journey and profits are not worth sacrificing the hobby and image for the rest of us !!!
I hope this gets resolved and the fish survive the delays.
Race
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Vili_Shark
New member
hmmm....not a surprising post.
Would be nicer if you tell the people who dont know, why have you post this and the history between you ans Steve.
Kahuna Tuna
Active member
Its stuff like this that is going to get this hobby shut down IMO. There was no excuse for this, it was a blatant attempt to sneak a fish in and they got caught. I dont see any heros here.
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