OT: Dog training collars

[DrMilhouse]

hey all. I'm looking for one of the slight discomfort shock collars that are used for training. Not a no bark collar, but one with a remote. I've seen them around. I would like to know if someone out there has one that I can borrow for a week or two or buy from you.

He's a pretty smart dog and I know it's only gonna take 2 or 3 times for him to learn that no really is no when he darts off.

Please no grief about how inhumane it is or whatever. I feel bad enough, but the simple no and a terrible dirty look is not doing the trick and I'm not one to give him a slap on the butt.

eh...

anyone have one?

Thanks!
Mike

 

[FishnWishn]

I have one you can borrow but it sounds like your dog just needs a little more training on a long leash. The shock collar is not a training device but more of a long electronic leash. My dogs hunt 1/4-1/2 mile out in front of me and sometimes go out of whistle range or bolt after birds, rabbits, deer, or game that they are not suppose too and I call them back with the collar, but it is seldom ever used.
Before I would use the collar on your dog I would make sure he obeys the "Heel, Back & Stay" commands. Before you use the collar I would let you borrow my 25 ft. training leash or you can buy a 50-100 ft. leash at Bass Pro Shops if he is a fast runner. Go for a walk let your dog drag it. If he strays too far give him a "Back or Heel" command, if he doesn't obey just step on the leash and stop him. If he bolts give him a "Stay" command then step on the leash, the leash is long enough to step on and stop him before he gets too far. That may be all you need to train your dog. A cheap alternative to the long leash is a long 50- 100 ft cotton rope, it needs some stretch when you step on it.
If that doesn't work I will be happy to help you with your dog and the collar, but you can do more harm than good if the collar is not used properly, or if the dog does not know what he is supposed to do when you use the collar.

 

[Csubseball]

I second that! Try the leash before the collar. I have a collar as well, but it is not a good alternative for training purposes. HTH

 

[DrMilhouse]

eh, he does great with anything. He's not one to run off and as far as just stepping outside for a short walk or restroom break, then he does great... unless he's distracted. When he's serious about taking off, he's yanked the leash out of my wife's hand, and when she decided she was gonna hold tighter, he took the wife with her for a few feet.

I'm just not sure how to go about getting him to stop when he's supposed to stop. Today, he got where he wanted to be and when I gave a loud "NO" and a dirty look and a get back here, he looked at me with a smile and kept walking.

When you actually catch up, it's a little wrong to give any sort of negative reinforcement cause at that point, it's a little late. Positive reinforcement doesn't work to get him back when he's distracted.

He's great on a leash, he does wonderful, but I don't use and don't like using a leash all the time. He always look for an "ok" when he's on the leash before going after something. I dunno...

Would love to borrow it or hear some other suggestion. I'm in Centennial too. I seriously am not "happy" about using that kind of thing, but I'm not happy about having him completely ignore me from 50 yards away either.

 

[FishnWishn]

Again it comes down to basic dog obedience training. The long leash is the best tool to control a dog when working far distances (anything more than heeling). The electronic collar is never to be used if a dog does not know or obey a command and never for just negative reinforcement. If you push the button on the collar without the dog knowing why or what to do, he may get scared and bolt. Possibly into on-coming traffic. The least that could happen is that the dog will associate any collar as negative reinforcement. A few suggestions:

1. Always use 1 syllable commands like Stay, Sit, Come, Heel. A dog is smart but it does not understand english. It only hears sounds and tones. When you told him "NO" he stopped and looked. When you gave him a string of commands "get back here" he could only hear one sound not 3 words, and it did not sound like "Come".

2. Always use his name before a command so that he knows you are going to give him one.

3. The key is control. By using the leash your dog thinks you are on the other end and you have control even if you are not holding it and he is dragging it. Stepping on it will give you the right amount of negative reinforcement. Give him a command even 50 yds away he will still think you are on the other end of the leash he is dragging.

4. let him go 10 feet ahead then give him the command to "stay" then step on the leash. Tell him to "come" then pull him back too you. Never go to him if he disobeys, that gives him control. Then work out to 20 ft then have him come. then 30 ft, 40 ft, 50 ft. You get him to come back that far out and he will start to come whenever you give him the command no matter how far he is on or off the leash. If he disobeys then put him right back on the leash and start over again.

5. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition. Always use the same word for a command every time. Don't use "come", then change it to "Here" the next time. Train your dog a minimum of 30 min every day and no more than 20 minutes on one command at a time. you will have your dog obeying off the leash before you know it.

6. After he has mastered the basic commands use a whistle to give him commands at a distance. Blow once for "stay" and twice for "Come". Use the leash by giving him the command then blowing the whistle, then pull, or step on the leash if he does not respond. He will soon learn that after the whistle comes the negative reinforcement if he does not obey.

Sorry for the long post. If you need training videos for a long leash I can loan you some, but I don't think a collar will do him any good. In fact the Electronic collar training video has you do all the things I just told you before you use the collar.

 

[DrMilhouse]

Thanks for all the advice. I'll see if I can find another. I'm not saying that your method doesn't work, but I know my dog well enough to know his reactions and I know him well enough to know he knows how to behave on a leash but blatantly ignores me while looking at me and knowing what he's supposed to do when he's not on one.

By the way, you make it sound as if I'm all about the negative reinforcement end of that. I'm not, I've NEVER used that as a method of training. People are astounded at what a well mannered, well behaved, polite and smart dog he is and always impressed when he's being a show off for everyone.

When he does take off, he does know quite well that "NO" is to stop, right away and "Come here" means exactly that. Taking off after him is of course the wrong way to get him to come back, but when he's following something (i.e. a fellow neighbor who happens to be walking their dog on a leash), then of course standing there and doing nothing when the dog is following them is of course the wrong thing to do.

If not for a negative reinforcement (or getting your dog's attention) in training at a distance, then just exactly why did you get the one that you have?

 

[FishnWishn]

I am sorry if I came off that way. I really hate posting because my keyboard always gets taken out of context. Don't get me wrong, the leash is used for negative reinforcement and the collar is an electronic leash. I use them both. What I was trying to say is that if a dog hears a command and does not obey it, then an electronic collar should not be used. The collar should not be used to correct behavior, but used to give commands, and there is a difference between the two.
That brings me to why I use it. My dogs hunt 1/4-1/2 mile ahead of me while I am on horse back. They may get out of range of my commands or whistle or out of sight of my hand signals. They may get close to a stream where the water hinders their hearing. They also may have on collars that beep so I can locate them in tall grass or bushes The locator collar beeps faster and louder when they are on point. If they should flush the bird before I get there, the noise and excitement may prevent them from hearing my commands and they will chase that bird to the next county unless it lands or I stop them with the collar. In all these instances I use the collar to give them a "come" command to bring them back closer to the whistle or hand signals. The key is that they come when given a signal. when they don't, I retrain them on the long leash. It's not a bad mark against my dogs. all dogs falter and need retraining.
Well good luck with your dog. I apologize again if it seems like I questioned yours or your dogs abilities. It is just that in the past 15 years of training dogs for feild trials competitions, I have seen too many good dogs get screwed up by not using the collar as it was intended. That is one reason why the collars are only found in hunting depts and not on the shelf at most pet stores. Too many prople would use them for behavior correction training.
I just knew when I pushed that first post button I was going to regret it.

 

[DrMilhouse]

It's okay, I didn't mean to take it so defensively, but I don't want you thinking I'm taking that measure as a first step or haven't put any thought into it or even worse, that I'd enjoy it.

I'm pretty certain that even though your dog is trained quite well, if they get it into their head to chase something and you yell "sit", he probably doesn't just stop what he's thinking and just sit right down. Mine doesn't either. When you yell "no" I'm certain that he doesn't just stop what he's doing immediately in that situation. If he does, I suppose it is because at some point, he's had some "negative reinforcement" either via electronic leash or a rope or a combination of the two.

Training on a leash would be a fine thing for this, except he already does wonderful on a leash. It's like a night and day difference when he has a leash on.

If you have some other way to grab his attention and let him know that running after I've given several stern "NO" commands from 100-300 feet away, I'm all ears or eyes.

I assume that I would need to use this about twice or maybe 3 times or five at the very most. It seems a bit much to get a quality collar for $100-$150 for a very few times that it would be used.

 

[bmb527]

If I lived closer, you could use mine.
I agree there is no substitute for training, but the collar is a type of training tool. I have 2 large Akitas that occasionally get distracted and no ammount of calling would get their attention. They are very well trained, they have their canine good citized awards as well as certified in various obedience classes. The collar WILL get their attention!
I would reccommend the Innotek brand, decent renge, reasonable price and available at Petsmart. I had to trim my dogs fur on their neck where the contacts are located and start with the lowest stage. Some dogs will catch on with just a warning noise, while some will require the full jolt of level 4. Don't let people tell you it is cruel, they are usually the ones with the unruly dogs that bark and jump all over you who say "they are just being themselves". Some dogs do fine with regular old training, some need the extra step.
I had to hide the remote from my dogs, as they figured out that it was the cause of the irritation when they ignored a command. They wouldn't even go outside if it was around my neck. It tookfour months to get them fully trained, but it is great now that they are.
Good Luck,
Bill