OT: Roethlisberger better than Warner?
- Thread starter Dyngoe
- Start date
orientalexpress
New member
Actually my best friend is a big time steelers fan,we're talk about big ben all the time,i do not hate him,i only hate all those qbs from my division but not big ben
i love what TO and Pacman did to them cowboys,i was actually sad when they're release pacman.with the steelers running game i would said warner don't underestimated those play action.they're keep all those safety closer to the scrimage.Now with big ben on arizona ,without running game,that mean He's had to throw tha ball on a timing route and a quick released to beat the blitz:eek1: ,we're saw what happen to those game again the eagles:lol:
lapsan
Dyngoe
New member
Ben..you have to poke the bear again AND THEN throw me a bone so I'm not inclined to respond?
I am still on the fence about who is better, but I'm leaning towards Big Ben and I'm enjoying the debate so I'll keep it going.
I think Fish brings up two REALLY important points:
1. Sacks - For whatever reason (Ben holds the ball too long, he doesn't have the receivers, offensive line, etc) Ben has been hit WAY more than Warner. Even though he's been sacked 46 to Warner's 26 he has only lost the ball 7 times, the same as Warner.
2. Better all around - When the Sh!t hits the fan a QB has to improvise. This usually means running the ball. 18 runs for Warner = -2 yds, 34 runs for Ben = 104 yds, 2 TDs.
3. Mentally Tougher - While Warner wins in almost every statistic besides running, there is one were Ben holds the advantage: when he's losing. That's right, when he is losing he outplays Warner. It's hard to say why this is but I did some digging and found out Big Ben got sacked most when they were behind and was intercepted less than Warner when behind. Conversely he was intercepted more and sacked less when they were in the lead. So, I'm extrapolating and guessing when they are winning he takes chances which leads to more picks, but he also get's rid of the ball more and gets sacked less. HOWEVER, when the game is on his shoulders and they need to come back he's more cautious, throwing less picks and getting sacked more.
Now, my third point needs some more analysis but the other two are straight facts. Ben gets hit more but loses the ball far less by percentage. He can run when needed. And, finally, when he's needed he makes the plays.
More food for thought and points for discussion.
I'm seeing something else when I look at the number of sacks and fumbles:
Warner has 11 fumbles (7 lost) and 14 INT with 598 pass attempts
Big Ben has 14 fumbles (7 lost) and 15 INT with 469 pass attempts
I don't see Big Ben being real careful with the balls this year. Perhaps all that running had him being careless?
I do agree that Big Ben is better at managing close games. Perhaps his defense is keeping it close, but his rating in the 4th quarters are pretty good. And he doesn't often make mistake to lose the game in the 4th.
Asking Warner to run is not fair The guy is 37! On his best day, he may beat out Tom Brady but he's got to be the slowest QB in the game. He does have 3 career rushing TDs; Big Ben has 10.
There are some areas where Big Ben is better, but he has never been dominating. I gave the nod to Warner because for 3 years he was the best QB.
Warner has 11 fumbles (7 lost) and 14 INT with 598 pass attempts
Big Ben has 14 fumbles (7 lost) and 15 INT with 469 pass attempts
I don't see Big Ben being real careful with the balls this year. Perhaps all that running had him being careless?
I do agree that Big Ben is better at managing close games. Perhaps his defense is keeping it close, but his rating in the 4th quarters are pretty good. And he doesn't often make mistake to lose the game in the 4th.
Asking Warner to run is not fair
The guy is 37! On his best day, he may beat out Tom Brady but he's got to be the slowest QB in the game. He does have 3 career rushing TDs; Big Ben has 10.There are some areas where Big Ben is better, but he has never been dominating. I gave the nod to Warner because for 3 years he was the best QB.
orientalexpress
New member
when the steelers is losing in the 4th quarter,they're running a 2 minutes drill which an opponent playing a prevent defense.Theyre pat their stat by throw meaningless yards and intercept less because no DB within 10 yards of the wideout.the steelers doesn't far behind often.on the other hand.
Dyngoe
New member
I'll give it to Warner on the INT in general. Ben does give up the ball more. But, a little more analysis shows us that compared with Warner:
Ben is less likely to be intercepted in the red zone (0 to 3)
Ben is less likely to be intercepted when losing
Ben is less likely to be intercepted and more likely to throw a TD in the last two minutes of a half
Ben is less likely to fumble when sacked (14/46 vs 11/26)
Ben is less likely to lose the ball when fumble(7/14 vs 7/11)
Fair enough, he is old. But at the same time Ben is young and that does add to his inexperience.Asking Warner to run is not fair
Yes, in 1999, 2001 and now in 2008 Warner has been amazing. But, let's not forget the years around these:
2000 went 10-6 and lost wild card playoff
2002 benched and replace with Bulger
2006-2007 he was battling with Leinhart and had "decent" seasons but no playoffs.
So, even with extremely similar teams Warner is not consistent. While Ben has battled stupidity, constantly changing receivers (loss of Randal El and Plaxico) and yet has the best 5 year start of any QB ever.
Here are one thing I'll throw in the mix:
Where is Warner playing?
I'll bet, though I can't prove, that most QBs do better in AZ as opposed to PA. But this is hard to quantify because the Steeler's defense is better and therefore they have better stats over the season. However, think of the weather in PA vs AZ: rain, cold, wind, etc. Also, here are some stats:
Warner drops 20 points in QB rating on the road
Ben gains 5 on the road
Warner throws more INT than Ben on the road
fishme
Premium Member
I tried not to post on this thread, b/c this would go forever, but I can't help this LOL. Fox Sports just called out the Cardinals, the worst Superbowl team EVER...LOL. Now, I really really want the Cardinals to win. Go Cards!!!!
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/pgStory?contentId=9101958&MSNHPHCP>1=39002#sport=NFL&photo=9100778
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/pgStory?contentId=9101958&MSNHPHCP>1=39002#sport=NFL&photo=9100778
Every team spies ...
Every team spies ...
Every team spies on other teams. It is just illegal to recording on the field. Every team records other team from the booth. With all the technology out there, from the booth, they can still close up and hear what other team signal/saying... I'd say Brady is underrated and he should belong to the top 3 QB every play the game.
Every team spies ...
Every team spies on other teams. It is just illegal to recording on the field. Every team records other team from the booth. With all the technology out there, from the booth, they can still close up and hear what other team signal/saying... I'd say Brady is underrated and he should belong to the top 3 QB every play the game.
Dyngoe
New member
Thought I'd throw this in for fun. Since we were supposed to be comparing Ben and Kurt, here's a comparison of Big Ben and Tom Brady over their first 5 "full" seasons. (I excluded Tom's first year where he threw 3 passes)
Tom
Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int Sck Rate
1,576 2,545 62% 18,029 123 66 156 88.5
Ben
Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int Sck Rate
1,189 1,905 62.4% 14,974 101 69 192 89.4
So, not only did Ben win more games then Tom in his first five years, he also had a better rating over those five years.
Tom
Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int Sck Rate
1,576 2,545 62% 18,029 123 66 156 88.5
Ben
Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int Sck Rate
1,189 1,905 62.4% 14,974 101 69 192 89.4
So, not only did Ben win more games then Tom in his first five years, he also had a better rating over those five years.
sfsuphysics
Active member
Superbowl XXIV San Francisco 49ers 55... Denver Broncos 10. (OUCH)
Unless the Cards get beat by that margin, then they're alright in my book, and since the Steelers aren't really that big of an offensive team I don't see that happening.
Unless the Cards get beat by that margin, then they're alright in my book, and since the Steelers aren't really that big of an offensive team I don't see that happening.
LCN
In Memoriam
Re: Every team spies ...
Re: Every team spies ...
Recording drills, practice runs, pre-game and half time tune-ups, and camera angles that are not allow is consider spying. Telling your camera guy to keep quiet should raise some questions. Watching footage of a game is legal and is done by all teams. The Pats got caught and dealt with the fines, which was a slap in the hand for what they gain from cheating.
Brady is over-rated and his career is basically over after this injury. The next time he senses a lineman in his area, he will release the ball a couple hundreds of a second too early. Trade Brady and keep the backup.
Re: Every team spies ...
Recording drills, practice runs, pre-game and half time tune-ups, and camera angles that are not allow is consider spying. Telling your camera guy to keep quiet should raise some questions. Watching footage of a game is legal and is done by all teams. The Pats got caught and dealt with the fines, which was a slap in the hand for what they gain from cheating.
Brady is over-rated and his career is basically over after this injury. The next time he senses a lineman in his area, he will release the ball a couple hundreds of a second too early. Trade Brady and keep the backup.
beaupierce
Member
Dyngoe,
We can have a indepth talk about this when we meet up. I know both of these guys......
Ps. Ben is the better of the two. He is a smarter QB, but Kurt has a more "QB friendly" offense.....
this is gonna make a interesting SB
We can have a indepth talk about this when we meet up. I know both of these guys......
Ps. Ben is the better of the two. He is a smarter QB, but Kurt has a more "QB friendly" offense.....
this is gonna make a interesting SB
Solitaryensis
New member
I think there is a big difference between prefering Warner on a good day, versus Ben ANY day. Of course, Warner has probably had more overall success than Ben has. Hes been in the league a lot longer and is a "passing" QB. So, one one of Warners good days, I would certainly take him over Ben. Conversly, hes played some of the worse games I have ever seen, throwing several INTs, fumbling, etc. I think he averages about an INT a game over his career as well.
So, overall, I would take Ben, given his consistency and poise. Sure, Warners had some good games but some really awful ones too. Gotta judge a player on everything he does, not just on the good days. ALong those lines, Bens as consistent as they come...at least thats what the numbers tell us.
So, overall, I would take Ben, given his consistency and poise. Sure, Warners had some good games but some really awful ones too. Gotta judge a player on everything he does, not just on the good days. ALong those lines, Bens as consistent as they come...at least thats what the numbers tell us.
myrchandle
New member
Just compare their performances in the superbowl. If you were to avg out Warner's exp to Roethlisbergers.......... Nuff said.
Solitaryensis
New member
So...in order to figure out whos better, its as simple as figuring out well a player does in one game and not over the course of his career?