OT: Roethlisberger better than Warner?
- Thread starter Dyngoe
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Solitaryensis
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Youve got to be kidding right? Fitz TD run at the end was all Warner? Fitz 1st leaping TD was all Warner? Come on. You gotta play fair. Granted, both QBs had players that made great plays, none clearly had more help than the other. Warner made a nice run at the end there and ill give him that. I dont think this game really put the stamp on this argument but I do know who won and drove his team down for a game winning TD. Thats gotta count for something...
sfsuphysics
Active member
While ol' Roeth didn't do bad in the superbowl and actually played it well, I still say Warner is the better QB.
Dyngoe
New member
Come on Ben! Solitaryensis nailed it perfectly. Without Fitzgerald and a little luck Kurt would have looked pretty bad today. The complete stats aren't in yet but I'll bet AZ has a LOT more yards after the catch than Pitt. And, who was helping Ben? The TRUE statement is:
The Cards don't make the playoffs without Fitzgerald.
Pretty well? One int (from a tip), 70% completions, a 93.2 QB rating and a near perfect game winning drive? Let's not forget the three incredible scrambles in the game. Ben smacked Kurt today.
myrchandle
New member
Kurt Warner Vs. the #1 DEFENSE in the league:
31/43 - 377yds - 3TD - 1INT
I don't know... But that just says it all... VS one of the ELITE DEF in the league and he sliced them for almost 400yds!
Ben played against a mediocre at best defense and played "well". Warner is better than Ben. Nuff Said.
31/43 - 377yds - 3TD - 1INT
I don't know... But that just says it all... VS one of the ELITE DEF in the league and he sliced them for almost 400yds!
Ben played against a mediocre at best defense and played "well". Warner is better than Ben. Nuff Said.
sfsuphysics
Active member
And without Santonio Holmes the Steelers loses the game, and Ben has absolutely HORRID stats.
And without Jerry Rice... maybe the 49ers don't win as many super bowls...
Fact of the matter is of the catches Fitzgerald made, only a couple were "all him" (one being the touchdown catch he lept for), the 50 yard catch? He hit the seam well (like a receiver should) and was just faster than everyone else because he was already near full speed. As mentioned, the "#1 defense in the NFL" and almost 400 yards and 3 TDs thrown against
Geeze you're REALLY hung up on that whole QB rating bit aren't you??
While I will say Ben scrambled quite well, he also is a much bulkier QB than Grandpa Kurt.Gaming winning drive = only touchdown he threw in the game, and while that pass was thrown quite nicely the fact it was a good catch was ALL Santonio Holmes (which is why he got the MVP).
But whatever, arguing/discussing with a fan of the team really a point in futility I've found out, so I'm going to stop right here.
orientalexpress
New member
Let see warner -31/43 - 377yds - 3TD - 1INT VS #1 defense
Big Ben -21/30 -256-1td-1 int. VS #19 defense
let see it the other way
Warner without Fitzgerald 24/36 -250yds-1td-1int
Big ben without Holmes 12/27-119yds-0td-1int
hmmm
let remove those black/gold sunglass u will see this diffrently
congratulation to the steelers BTW
lapsan
Big Ben -21/30 -256-1td-1 int. VS #19 defense
let see it the other way
Warner without Fitzgerald 24/36 -250yds-1td-1int
Big ben without Holmes 12/27-119yds-0td-1int
hmmm
let remove those black/gold sunglass u will see this diffrently
congratulation to the steelers BTW
lapsan
Solitaryensis
New member
Come on guys. I know were suppposed to all be biased her but you guys have to be fair in your assessments. No one wanted to use numbers or facts earlier in the argument but now all of a sudden the stats matter? Holmes makes an awesome catch and you take the great pass away from Ben but Fitzs two big plays and Boldins 45 yard catch are all the result of Warners play?
Come on guys. Warner is a passing QB. AZ plays a passing style offense. So, CLEARLY, Kurt will have more yards. There no denying that. He played a great second half, in part because of some big plays made by his receievers. Not saying he didnt do well, because he did, but to say that he was clearly better than Warner simply because of the yards is bologna. Yards isnt everything boys...ive been told that a couple times in my life
Come on guys. Warner is a passing QB. AZ plays a passing style offense. So, CLEARLY, Kurt will have more yards. There no denying that. He played a great second half, in part because of some big plays made by his receievers. Not saying he didnt do well, because he did, but to say that he was clearly better than Warner simply because of the yards is bologna. Yards isnt everything boys...ive been told that a couple times in my life
Dyngoe
New member
Hey Mike,
I think of myself as pretty objective. And, that being the case, I have to say there was no "conclusive" QB winner in the game. Obviously I think Ben did better, but it has nothing to do with me being a fan. Just a quick rebuttal:
1. QB/WR relationship - Yes, a QB needs to have a good WR to match up with. Probably the reason Marino never won a SB. But, when you look at the yards after the catch, the accuracy of the passes and the ability to make the plays, Ben won out on all of those. Regardless of ratings, TDs or total yards. He simply played a better game. Not prettier, not as "big" but better.
2. TDs - First off TDs, like QB ratings are not the definition of who is a better QB. Warner had a one that was "mainly" him, a one yard TD to Patrick. The second TD to Fitzgerald was "mainly if not ALL Fitzgerald. Warner just tossed it up and the bigger player came down with the ball. The third TD was 50% Fitzgerald, 10% Warner and 40% bad defense. He was WIDE open in the middle, caught the ball at 9 yards and then ran it 55 yards. Now, Ben did have some help by Santonio on that last TD but remember he missed the first try that was a more athletic catch (similar to the one Fitzgerald caught). The second pass was ON THE MONEY. Not to say the catch wasn't great, but that was a near perfect pass; much better than either QB had thrown all day.
3. Clutch/Intangibles - Warner threw a direct INT to Harrison that probably cost the game. That should end the discussion right there. But, let's continue. The scrambling and extending the plays was amazing by Ben. He completed 70% of his throws with only one INT that was a tip. And, the game winning drive will be seen as one of the great Super Bowl drives.
So, yes, Warner got a lot of yards on a great defense and he did get three TDs. But in the end when you "objectively" look at everything that makes up a great QB, Ben was more accurate, more consistent, extended the plays and came through in the clutch. This is why I think he was the better QB in the game. Maybe I should not have said "smacked", but Ben did play better.
I think of myself as pretty objective. And, that being the case, I have to say there was no "conclusive" QB winner in the game. Obviously I think Ben did better, but it has nothing to do with me being a fan. Just a quick rebuttal:
1. QB/WR relationship - Yes, a QB needs to have a good WR to match up with. Probably the reason Marino never won a SB. But, when you look at the yards after the catch, the accuracy of the passes and the ability to make the plays, Ben won out on all of those. Regardless of ratings, TDs or total yards. He simply played a better game. Not prettier, not as "big" but better.
2. TDs - First off TDs, like QB ratings are not the definition of who is a better QB. Warner had a one that was "mainly" him, a one yard TD to Patrick. The second TD to Fitzgerald was "mainly if not ALL Fitzgerald. Warner just tossed it up and the bigger player came down with the ball. The third TD was 50% Fitzgerald, 10% Warner and 40% bad defense. He was WIDE open in the middle, caught the ball at 9 yards and then ran it 55 yards. Now, Ben did have some help by Santonio on that last TD but remember he missed the first try that was a more athletic catch (similar to the one Fitzgerald caught). The second pass was ON THE MONEY. Not to say the catch wasn't great, but that was a near perfect pass; much better than either QB had thrown all day.
3. Clutch/Intangibles - Warner threw a direct INT to Harrison that probably cost the game. That should end the discussion right there. But, let's continue. The scrambling and extending the plays was amazing by Ben. He completed 70% of his throws with only one INT that was a tip. And, the game winning drive will be seen as one of the great Super Bowl drives.
So, yes, Warner got a lot of yards on a great defense and he did get three TDs. But in the end when you "objectively" look at everything that makes up a great QB, Ben was more accurate, more consistent, extended the plays and came through in the clutch. This is why I think he was the better QB in the game. Maybe I should not have said "smacked", but Ben did play better.
Solitaryensis
New member
You are comparing an entire career vs. one game. For the most part, these relationships have been complimentary and the argument can me made that neither would have been succesful without each other. What im trying to say is that you take away
Fitz two big plays and you got a lopsided victory.
If you want to count yardage, sure, Ben won. But then again, based on yardage alone, Drew Brees should be the MVP of the league
Again, being a good quarterback/team isnt simply about throwing TDs. (See NO Saints)
For the record, im neither a fan of the Cards or the Steelers. I like talking football, which is why I contributed to the thread. All in all, i think it was a great game and a difficult one to judge who was better. Pitt plays a very very well rounded game, meaning Ben doesnt have to throw 4 tds to give them a chance, Holmes doesnt need to break 70 tds for them to win and Parker doesnt need to run or 200 yds for them to win. In other words, in most games, you wont see a Steeler with crazy stats. You just see a win.
AZ, on the other hand, is a very one dimensional team. If Kurt doesnt throw for 300+ and Fitz or Boldin dont catch TDs, they simply dont win. So...IMHO, its difficult to compare the QBs because they play on such different teams. What we DO now is that Kurt has never won unless he has had stars around him.
orientalexpress
New member
u could said the same thing about Big Ben without #1 defense,u think Big Ben can win without That D?i don't think so
lapsan
Great game. If Warner was neutralized by the Stellers D, I'd be shopping for a cone skimmer today. That said, I don't think this one game should and could change any opinion in this thread.
"What we DO now is that Kurt has never won unless he has had stars around him."
How much of that is also the other way around? That Warner helped elevate other teammates game? Didn't Bulger have virtually the same offense after Warner left? Didn't Leinert have all the weapons Warner does now?
"What we DO now is that Kurt has never won unless he has had stars around him."
How much of that is also the other way around? That Warner helped elevate other teammates game? Didn't Bulger have virtually the same offense after Warner left? Didn't Leinert have all the weapons Warner does now?
Dyngoe
New member
OK, I'm going to throw one more thing in the mix...
What was the most important play of the game?
Most people would say the pick by Harrison. At least a 10 point swing if not a 14 point swing.
And, who's fault was that?
Kurt Warner
So, Ben won the game for his team with the last drive and Kurt most likely lost the game with that pick.
I think that should be the end of discussion since everything else is a little too close to call.
What was the most important play of the game?
Most people would say the pick by Harrison. At least a 10 point swing if not a 14 point swing.
And, who's fault was that?
Kurt Warner
So, Ben won the game for his team with the last drive and Kurt most likely lost the game with that pick.
I think that should be the end of discussion since everything else is a little too close to call.
BenR7132
New member
I'm just going to say how much I love football. Despite all the statistics, it's amazing how people can see the same game so incredibly differently. I guess that's why there is never any proving that, in a team game, one individual is better than another. If objective statistics cannot do it, nothing can. It all comes down to the heart. And, unfortunately most of America's heart was broken last night, but the Steelers deserved to win in the end. Change of topic: has anyone seen a Superbowl with so many dumb penalties, by both sides? Gandy (ex-Bear) was a total liability, and Harrison should have been kicked out of the stadium for that horrid cheap shot.
Dyngoe
New member
Then what happened in his other seasons? Why was he on the bench and unable to "elevate" all the other players?
Come on mdt!
2002 Rams - Warner had the same team, was benched with 2TDs and a 67.4 rating. Bulger - 14 TDs and a 101 rating. They went to the divisional playoffs in Bulger's first two years.
2007 Cards - Cards were 8-8 and Warner had a 89.8 rating compared with the 2nd year rookie 61.9. So, neither of them were very good.
I stand by what I have said. When he has a team that is pass happy and he's surrounded by great players he does well. He is a great passer, not a great QB.
Dyngoe
New member
First off, I think there were less penalties than should have been called on both teams. But, in all the officials did a pretty good job. We must remember that sometime penalties are thrown after a player gets a warning. So, the penalty that was called might not seem serious but perhaps the ref already warned him to watch himself.
Horrid cheap shot? I won't say it wasn't a penalty but it was an open hand push to the pads. A lot has been made of this but come on...he just pushed the guy over. It had no chance of hurting him like an illegal chop block or a facemask.
Now, I'll throw another in the mix....
Did anyone see the ref on that holding call for a touchback? The penalty happened and he didn't throw the flag. Instead he first turns his head and looks down field and AFTER seeing the reception turns back and throws the flag. I've looked at the replay many times and can not understand what he was doing. His job has nothing to do with the reception down the field, so why was he looking? I'm not implying anything but it was strange to say the least.
Solitaryensis
New member
Ummm, yeah, that safety cost me a lot of money. Well, who knows how it would have turned out but if no safety and 20 yard first down, this gamee might have been iced. I come down on refs pretty hard but I just dont see how you could/would call that, particularly at that juncture in the game. I know youre supposed to call the first play just like the last, but come on, it wasnt holding, the game is on the line and you award the other team 2 points?
sfsuphysics
Active member
Fault of the pick, Warner yes. However if Roeth doesn't get a pass deflected to be an INT, Warner isn't going to throw that pick in the first place.
Fault of the TD? EVERYONE ELSE. Seriously, 300 pound guy taking 5 minutes to get to the end zone (yeah its an exaggeration), and all of that sloppy tackling? Also if you notice when gets the Pick Fitzgerald is really not running very fast after him, I don't know if he was trying to be slick and let time run out, but he's arguably a very fast man, not-arguably faster than the guy who intercepted it.
Stars? Greatest show on turf? Ummm he had two of the best receivers this game. With the exception of the running back, he has stars on either side of him in this game, yet he didn't win.
I guess calling who the "better" quarterback is a question of what type of QB you want. Do you want a QB that can throw touchdowns all over the place and get lots of passing yards, then you want Warner (and yeah obviously you'll have talent on his end to receive), do you want a QB that can be "evasive" and make plays, then Roeth is your choice.
However what I thought was quite laughable, was that ESPN has a poll yesterday the top 10 QBS in Superbowl History, and Roeth was one of the choices... ugh!... but hey I guess they had to since he was in the SB, If the cards won I'm sure Warner would be there too... btw guess who's on top? (number in parenthesis is number of votes for #1)
myrchandle
New member
Well Warner definitely did not lose the game for the team. They were able to come back as a team. They lost it with the dumb penalties... Which in fact kept drives going not BEN. Regardless of the point swing, Warner did what he had to in 7 minutes time. The Def let down in the last 2 minutes. I don't know what you were watching but Warner kept the plays going, and Ben got bailed out by bad penalties.
sfsuphysics
Active member
Black and Yellow blinders...
unless you had a different camera angle than my station shot, I watched it again and the ref that threw the flag threw it right as the guy who was held was being tackled to the ground and he was looking in that direction.
With all this talk of referee I'm surprised no one brought up the last play the Cards had... I mean argue all you want whether it was a fumble or a forward pass, when that is moving in real time it is in ZERO way obvious, it's the superbowl, this could potentially give another team a shot at winning... but yeah lets not review the play because we want to get home.