Mr Smiley
New member
Does this setup remove what needs to be removed like the skimmer does?
Over Skimming
- Thread starter Mr Smiley
- Start date
Does this setup remove what needs to be removed like the skimmer does?
goochesfish
New member
I can only hope so. My phosphates and nitrates are zero but I do run GFO, carbon, and a N/P biopellet reactor.
scubasteve06
Jeeper Reefer
You will start a war with this one question, I'd just leave it alone, turn around and back away slowly lol.
Mr Smiley
New member
:spin3: Well if it does cost $100 to do the same thing as a skimmer, then ill be all for making a GREAT turf scrubber. I havent read :reading:too much on theses. But if it will not remove what needs removed then i have just passed $100 on that i could put toward a skimmer.:hmm4:
tkeracer619
New member
You can over skim but it is difficult. It all boils down to bio load and feeding.
Over skimming isn't caused by a lack of nutrients in the water but rather the lack of enough nutrient to get a stable foam head in the skimmer.
It will still skim and usually you can just set the skimmer dry but it won't produce cups of skimmate a week. It will still remove waste.
Over skimming isn't caused by a lack of nutrients in the water but rather the lack of enough nutrient to get a stable foam head in the skimmer.
It will still skim and usually you can just set the skimmer dry but it won't produce cups of skimmate a week. It will still remove waste.
Original Fin
In Memoriam
This being the case, couldn't the OP simply overstock/feed to compensate for having "too much" skimming power? That way, he'd still attain his goal of purchasing one skimmer, and still be able to use that one in the future on a larger system.
Jstdv8
New member
it works the opposite of a skimmer actually. skimmer take left over foods from feeding ect and break them down and remove them from teh system before they break down into phosphates and nitrates.
Scrubbers actually let the food stay in the system and break down naturally and then it consumes the phos and the trates from the water.
It actually works just liek cheato does except its much much stronger because the screen you grow the turf on is out of the water so the lights don't need to penetrate anything making them strong.
you also harvest the turf once a week and throw it away, so at that point you have removed all the excess crud that it has absorbed and removed it form the system entirely.
its made from PVC tubing 3/4" or 1" a screen that you get for under 2 dollars at the craft store (roughed up to a cactus like texture to hold the algae)
and a pump to pump water out of the sump and intot he PVC piping and down the screen back into the sump.
add a couple of those 27 watt twirly bulbs you find at wal-mart, one for each side of the screen and you're all set.
There are parameters on how big or small the screen needs to be depending on the size of your tank, which also dictates how much light and flow is needed, but there are calculators for all that, pretty easy and its one of the few things out there that works awesome that you can build yourself.
downsides: you do have to clean the turf in freshwater once a week, takes about 5 minutes.
Need to replace the bulbs (about 6-8 bucks each every three months)
can be a little noisy from water falling depending on how its built and how high your screen is vs a wider shorther screen
Upsides:
should bring your trates and phos dowbn to undetectable in less than 2 months (faster if you bought the pregrown screens that allready have turf on them)
grows more pods than your tanks fish could possibly consume
stabilizes PH
rids your tank of unwanted algae by outcompeteing for the phos and trates
keeps the leftover food in the system which becomes coral food
feed much more with same results (if you want)
coral growth is outstanding due to extra food in the water column and no phos or trates
cheap and is set up to be DIY
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Mr Smiley
New member
I like this. I foresee the wife already pointing at all the fish and saying i want that one. So im sure it may or may not be a tad overstocked at one point.
Mr Smiley
New member
If skimmate = bad and no skimmate makes it into the collection cup, then is it possible that the foam head could collapse and dump it all back into the water column? Or is my thinking a little off?
Mr Smiley
New member
I did a little reading on this. It seems to me like this may work in place of chemical media to remove phos/trates. But alot of people still run a skimmer while running a ATS.
cindre2000
New member
Question is, if an ATS produces the same results as a skimmer, why are skimmers much, much, much more popular? Is it just the ease of their marketability, or is it something else?
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A good skimmer will not have a 'collapsing' foam head; a crappy skimmer will. When you set a skimmer to 'dry', you are increasing the distance that the foam has to travel to enter the cup. Thus, less water more skim. With dryer foam, some of the bubbles will pop, dropping the skim on the still slowly rising foam head. But the entire thing will not collapse back into the water unless you have surface tension issues, or a crappy skimmer.
--
A good skimmer will not have a 'collapsing' foam head; a crappy skimmer will. When you set a skimmer to 'dry', you are increasing the distance that the foam has to travel to enter the cup. Thus, less water more skim. With dryer foam, some of the bubbles will pop, dropping the skim on the still slowly rising foam head. But the entire thing will not collapse back into the water unless you have surface tension issues, or a crappy skimmer.
Jstdv8
New member
scrubbers are just starting to regain popularity after the original marketer had alot of issues with the ones they were making a long time ago.
The new DIY ones are having great results and are in a whole different leauge than the old ones from the 80's.
also with the scrubber some people don't like the idea of having to clean and dispose of the algae as opposed to just emptying a skimmer cup.
I for one didn't have very good results with the skimmer, was feeding very sparse and doing 10% weekly water changes and could never get my phos below .5 had HA all over.
I ran the scrubber and the skimmer together for a while until the scrubber screen filled in and then once my phos and nitrates were undetectable I shut the skimmer off to see how it would do by itself and the phos and trates stayed at 0 so I ddin't see any reason to use the extra wattage of the skimmer at that point when the scubber did all I could ask for and more all by itself.
Skimmers are also a little flashier looking, making them more marketable I suppose, where DIY scrubbers arent the prettiest things in the world.
Just my .02
I personally couldnt be happier with mine an have since sold my skimmer.
The new DIY ones are having great results and are in a whole different leauge than the old ones from the 80's.
also with the scrubber some people don't like the idea of having to clean and dispose of the algae as opposed to just emptying a skimmer cup.
I for one didn't have very good results with the skimmer, was feeding very sparse and doing 10% weekly water changes and could never get my phos below .5 had HA all over.
I ran the scrubber and the skimmer together for a while until the scrubber screen filled in and then once my phos and nitrates were undetectable I shut the skimmer off to see how it would do by itself and the phos and trates stayed at 0 so I ddin't see any reason to use the extra wattage of the skimmer at that point when the scubber did all I could ask for and more all by itself.
Skimmers are also a little flashier looking, making them more marketable I suppose, where DIY scrubbers arent the prettiest things in the world.
Just my .02
I personally couldnt be happier with mine an have since sold my skimmer.
Mr Smiley
New member
Well i have narrowed my search to the following three skimmers. I plan to start out with a 150g DT and a ~55g sump/fuge. And possibly in the future move up into a max size of 240G DT and use my current 150G as a sump/Fuge but more likely going to a 180DT with a sump/fuge TBD on size. Also nothing is set up, just still planning.
I like what i have read about the SWC line. Reasonably priced and they pull lots of skimmate. Just stay away from the Sicce pump and go with the Askoll.
So i have chosen these Three what do you think.
SWC Xtreme
250A
300A
and
SWC Xtreme cone
250 1A
I like what i have read about the SWC line. Reasonably priced and they pull lots of skimmate. Just stay away from the Sicce pump and go with the Askoll.
So i have chosen these Three what do you think.
SWC Xtreme
250A
300A
and
SWC Xtreme cone
250 1A
Not sure if anyone else put their .02 in but yes you can overskim. Skimmers are indescrimate in what they pull from the water. There are certain elements that will be pullled from the water column that are necessary such as iodine. If you really want clean water consider some of the macro algaes. Those such as Saragassum, Halymenia and others are beautiful cheap to buy and will clean water better than any skimmer ever will.
Allmost
New member
ATS does not replace Skimmer, as they do not do the same thing.
a skimmer removes organics before they have a chance to break down into N and P, that is surface active organics which are like 20-30% of total Organic carbon (TOC)
ATS promotes growth of algae (any type) which removes N and P from water. in turn the scrubber's algae releases all sorts of vitamins and long and short chained organic carbons, which will lead to promotion of bacteria growth and increase in their number and therefore increasing what can be skimmed out via a skimmer. the Skimmerless ATS tanks all crash for no reason after 2 years ! TOC overload? maybe, I have never seen a successfull SPS tank using ATS so ...
according to many, the extra organic leads to population increase in bacteria (good and bad) which can deplete Oxygen really fast in a closed system . and can lead to coral death. (tht is one way algae combats corals for space )http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0612221839.htm
From it :
"Our study shows that bacteria are the front line that kill corals," Smith explained. "Algae release sugar, fueling bacterial growth on the corals. These bacteria suffocate the coral by cutting off the supply of oxygen. Once the corals die, this frees more space for more algae to grow. We think this process sets up a positive feedback loop that accelerates the rate of decline in already damaged reef ecosystems."
sorry if this is not that related to topic at hand
regarding over skimm, please correct me if I am wrong., but certain elements like copper and iodine attach themselves to organics and therefore get removed that way. which can cause Issues
over-skimming a SPS tank could make the SPS fade in color, I THINK due to elements, as studies show that a skimmer, doesnt matter how big, cant remove none active organics.Since the other two articles have been linked, I will link this one.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
I like this part in the conclusion.
The results to date on protein skimming as a means of aquarium water remediation form a consistent picture that is at odds with some of the cherished dogma in the marine husbandry area. According to the data presented in this and the earlier paper (Advanced Aquarist, January 2009), protein skimmers appear to have a much larger variation in their prices than they do in their ability to remove TOC from aquarium water. Recent design innovations like bubble plates, conical sides, or pinwheel impellers do not seem to impact significantly on either rate of TOC removal or amount of TOC removed, at least for the skimmers tested. Thus, skimmer manufacturer claims about enhanced organic removal capabilities should be met with skepticism in the absence of compelling and quantitative TOC removal data.
I think if one were to purchase a much larger skimmer then needed, one should either adjust the water level to a higher level or, place the skimmer in deeper water. This way the aquarist wouldn't have to purposely overstock the aquarium and crowd the fishes. They would still get the "skimmible" organics out of the water column without bubble degradation. Thereby not dropping the collected organics back into the water. Which would just build to a point that the large skimmer would then be able to evacuate anyway. I'm sure I'm wrong but, this is my take on it.
Here is another article that might help.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
I like this part in the conclusion.
The results to date on protein skimming as a means of aquarium water remediation form a consistent picture that is at odds with some of the cherished dogma in the marine husbandry area. According to the data presented in this and the earlier paper (Advanced Aquarist, January 2009), protein skimmers appear to have a much larger variation in their prices than they do in their ability to remove TOC from aquarium water. Recent design innovations like bubble plates, conical sides, or pinwheel impellers do not seem to impact significantly on either rate of TOC removal or amount of TOC removed, at least for the skimmers tested. Thus, skimmer manufacturer claims about enhanced organic removal capabilities should be met with skepticism in the absence of compelling and quantitative TOC removal data.
I think if one were to purchase a much larger skimmer then needed, one should either adjust the water level to a higher level or, place the skimmer in deeper water. This way the aquarist wouldn't have to purposely overstock the aquarium and crowd the fishes. They would still get the "skimmible" organics out of the water column without bubble degradation. Thereby not dropping the collected organics back into the water. Which would just build to a point that the large skimmer would then be able to evacuate anyway. I'm sure I'm wrong but, this is my take on it.
Here is another article that might help.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php
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Mr Smiley
New member
And this is my entire concern. And why i started this thread :spin3: I dont like the idea of having to spend money on chems to replace what is in the water if i get to big a skimmer. But i am also trying to find a happy medium of skimmer size and not over skim. I plan to have Cheato (sp?), but i havent looked at many other macro algea's.
scubasteve06
Jeeper Reefer
Chaeto is the norm in the macro algae side of the hobby. It is non invasive and grows well under the right light and water flow. Lights that are conducive to good chaeto growth have ample amounts of red and yellow wavelengths. 5100k-6500k bulbs accomplish this well, along with enough water flow to softly tumble the ball of chaetomorpha so all sides get equal light.
I think that you should find the company that has the quietest most reliable pump with sufficient air draw, that is in your price range, and then take your total water volume into account and then go with the next size bigger. This IMHO is the best way to size a skimmer for the task at hand. For example, I have a 154g system, I found the skimmer in my price range (at the time it had to be a used skimmer) and then found the next size up that the company(s) offered in their line up. This worked out to a skimmer rated to handle roughly 200g of water volume. It has never stopped skimming, or have I ever had the foam head collapse. It pulls cups of nasty dark brown/black thick sludge every 4 days consistently. As long as I keep the neck cleaned once a day to every two days and clean the transition to the neck once a week along with emptying the cup and cleaning it every time it gets full, I get optimal performance from it and no reason you shouldn't either from the skimmer you choose by following this regimen. Also when I clean the transition I take a hot cup of water and submerge the air intake line for the pump in the cup of water until empty. This cleans and removes any salt build up or calcium deposits that may have formed, keeping the air intake clean and free of blockage, and keeping the skimmer performing at its peak. Good luck choosing your skimmer.
I think that you should find the company that has the quietest most reliable pump with sufficient air draw, that is in your price range, and then take your total water volume into account and then go with the next size bigger. This IMHO is the best way to size a skimmer for the task at hand. For example, I have a 154g system, I found the skimmer in my price range (at the time it had to be a used skimmer) and then found the next size up that the company(s) offered in their line up. This worked out to a skimmer rated to handle roughly 200g of water volume. It has never stopped skimming, or have I ever had the foam head collapse. It pulls cups of nasty dark brown/black thick sludge every 4 days consistently. As long as I keep the neck cleaned once a day to every two days and clean the transition to the neck once a week along with emptying the cup and cleaning it every time it gets full, I get optimal performance from it and no reason you shouldn't either from the skimmer you choose by following this regimen. Also when I clean the transition I take a hot cup of water and submerge the air intake line for the pump in the cup of water until empty. This cleans and removes any salt build up or calcium deposits that may have formed, keeping the air intake clean and free of blockage, and keeping the skimmer performing at its peak. Good luck choosing your skimmer.
Mr Smiley
New member
ATS does not replace Skimmer, as they do not do the same thing.
a skimmer removes organics before they have a chance to break down into N and P, that is surface active organics which are like 20-30% of total Organic carbon (TOC)
ATS promotes growth of algae (any type) which removes N and P from water. in turn the scrubber's algae releases all sorts of vitamins and long and short chained organic carbons, which will lead to promotion of bacteria growth and increase in their number and therefore increasing what can be skimmed out via a skimmer. the Skimmerless ATS tanks all crash for no reason after 2 years ! TOC overload? maybe, I have never seen a successfull SPS tank using ATS so ...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0612221839.htm
From it :
"Our study shows that bacteria are the front line that kill corals," Smith explained. "Algae release sugar, fueling bacterial growth on the corals. These bacteria suffocate the coral by cutting off the supply of oxygen. Once the corals die, this frees more space for more algae to grow. We think this process sets up a positive feedback loop that accelerates the rate of decline in already damaged reef ecosystems."
sorry if this is not that related to topic at hand
regarding over skimm, please correct me if I am wrong., but certain elements like copper and iodine attach themselves to organics and therefore get removed that way. which can cause Issues
Your fine. I want this to go where it will so i can lean what i need to make the right decision.
I am hopeing to find a skimmer that will meet the middle ground. Just a bit larger for my current planned set up and either spot on for my future upgrade. I dont want to get a monster skimmer and then be SOL because it is too much for the system.
