Overflow size question

[2_zoa]

I've always read to have as much surface skimming as possible. Coast to coast with as thin of a sheet of water going over the falls (within reason) makes for the best overflows. Right? Remove the most protein laden water. Right? I wonder.......

In the process of feeding my fish this evening, I noticed something. It made me wonder. Is this true? Is this why some systems benefit from different husbandry practices more then others?
I have a run of the mill 65 gallon tank. I have a sump but, it's setup a bit differently then most. My tank is not drilled nor do I have a hang on back overflow. I employ a piece of 4" pvc pipe siliconed to the bottom with a MJ1200 inside of it, pumping into my skimmer which is in an overhead 20L sump. The output of the skimmer goes through a filter sock and then the sump gravity feeds back to the display.
I currently have multiple power heads and two of which are jebo rw4's. Of which pulse flow in the upper region of my tank giving me a small wave. They do however push water right at my overflow. Which is where the questions come from.
While feeding I watched the food get pushed right for the overflow only to get directed down and into the tanks currents. It did not go over and into my skimmer. Why?
Is it because my little MJ1200 doesn't draw enough over the top to pull in the bigger objects, like food? The 4" pvc pipe has roughly 12" of surface skimming. With the MJ1200 that equates to about a 1/4"ish tall water, tension, wall, thing. I'm not sure what it's called. The water line above the weir. The flow falls within the 2-5 times turn over rule and I know some like a higher to a really high flow sump setup. Different discussions.

With the fact that the food didn't go over the falls I have to assume a good bit of my tanks waste isn't going over either. Not until it's broke down and then it's a bit to late. Has anybody seen effects of different length overflows being better or worse in the way that the crap gets carried to the sump like we want it to?

 

[Zoa Te]

I don't think I understand how your tank is set up. Do you mean that the sump is above the tank? That could be one problem if it is.

 

[Kevin Guthrie]

I'm guessing circulation is pushing a lot more water (20X?) than your MJ and the down current grabs most of the food.

Interesting setup. When water evaporates the level of water in your stand pipe drops?

 

[2_zoa]

I don't think I understand how your tank is set up. Do you mean that the sump is above the tank? That could be one problem if it is.

That's correct. The sump is above the display.
Why do you think that's part of the problem?

 

[2_zoa]

I'm guessing circulation is pushing a lot more water (20X?) than your MJ and the down current grabs most of the food.

Interesting setup. When water evaporates the level of water in your stand pipe drops?

I've got about 3000 to 3500 gph turn over with my power heads.

That's correct. The evaporation is seen in the standpipe. So, my ATO runs and fills about 4oz of water. I should measure it to know for sure but, it's not much at all. Salinity swing is not of any concern in my system. Haha

Edit:
By the way, for you to post in my thread is awesome. Thank you. A member since 2013 and a post count of 4. That says something.

 

[2_zoa]

Bump for more ideas

 

[eugnandez]

I don't think I understand how your tank is set up.

 

[Tullsterx]

So, basically, your overflow is a 4", circular pvc stand-pipe that's siliconed to the bottom of your tank. There is a pump in there that pumps the overflow water from the PVC stand pipe to an overhead 20L sump. . .

I think with a circular overflow, there could be flow around the pipe, below the surface, that could be drawing food down from the surface as it flows around the stand-pipe.

 

[CStrickland]

I think most of what were relying on the sump to deal with is smaller than chunks of food. Like dissolved organic compounds that could form a surface scum that the skimmer would grab, and inorganic nutrients like nitrates that algae will use. Filter socks catch larger stuff but I don't find big chunks in mine very often. I think it's fine for the bigger stuff to break down in the tank and then get removed by whatev is running in the sump. It's nice to have the food stay in the tank where it can be eaten. As long as you aren't having turds pile up on the sand, and your parameters are ok, and you don't have algae, I wouldn't worry.

 

[2_zoa]

I think most of what were relying on the sump to deal with is smaller than chunks of food. Like dissolved organic compounds that could form a surface scum that the skimmer would grab, and inorganic nutrients like nitrates that algae will use. Filter socks catch larger stuff but I don't find big chunks in mine very often. I think it's fine for the bigger stuff to break down in the tank and then get removed by whatev is running in the sump. It's nice to have the food stay in the tank where it can be eaten. As long as you aren't having turds pile up on the sand, and your parameters are ok, and you don't have algae, I wouldn't worry.

That's just it. I've struggled to get this tank to clear up and run right. I haven't been able to fully eliminate algae issues.
If I whip up any debris using flow, it will just bounce around since it's not going into the sump. This is why I mentioned about tank maintenance. I'm thinking I may need to be one who siphons my sand bed.

 

[GimpyFin]

With a return submerged inside a tube in the display pumping up to a sump, you're not really going to get the same effect as a traditional overflow where stuff is literally pulled in (Like draining your sink or flushing the toilet.) Stuff may be sucked in if it's right by the intake grate on the pump, but could easily land/stay on the bottom of the tube, up near the surface above, or avoid the tube completely. Not necessarily saying that's a problem, but it does sound like your setup may be hindering what is actually exported from the display and being filtered.

 

[2_zoa]

With a return submerged inside a tube in the display pumping up to a sump, you're not really going to get the same effect as a traditional overflow where stuff is literally pulled in (Like draining your sink or flushing the toilet.) Stuff may be sucked in if it's right by the intake grate on the pump, but could easily land/stay on the bottom of the tube, up near the surface above, or avoid the tube completely. Not necessarily saying that's a problem, but it does sound like your setup may be hindering what is actually exported from the display and being filtered.

The water level inside the tube or the stand pipe is lower then that of the display. Water goes in just like it would if it were a traditional overflow.

 

[GimpyFin]

Ok, cool. The picture does help illustrate it better. Your overflow tube doesn't appear to have any channels cut out at the top? That would probably help. The bottom of those channels usually sit slightly below the water line allowing more stuff to make its way in there.

 

[2_zoa]

Ok, cool. The picture does help illustrate it better. Your overflow tube doesn't appear to have any channels cut out at the top? That would probably help. The bottom of those channels usually sit slightly below the water line allowing more stuff to make its way in there.

Right, it doesn't have teeth. I pay for that every time I clean the pump. I have to fish out snails and the occasional hermit. Having teeth on an overflow does raise the water level (and keep critters out) a bit making for a "deeper" wall of water going over the weir. They also effectively cut down on the over all linear length of surface skimming. Depending on how big the teeth are or spacing of the teeth, dictates that effect.

If I feed flake food and I don't submerse it before I let it go in the tank. 90% of it will go straight into the overflow tube. However once things are in the water column, larger items don't go over the falls. That's what I'm wondering about. Why? Or how can I make them?
That way I can remove them from the system via the skimmer and a filter sock. Or, I could have a very convent place to siphon them out of the skimmer body. Kinda like a settling tank in other setups.
My skimmer is an old school design with the flat topped body and it's an air stone driven unit. The air manifold in the pics tells me everything. Even the temp of the air. I can shut it down when ever I want as many times as I want. Leave it off for as long as I want. Once I fire it back up, I close off the bleed air to hit my air flow rate going into the skimmer and I adjust the air water interface to be right at the bottom of the neck. Walk away and forget it. I change my wood stones every two months.
So, if I can get more crap to go into this setup. I'll have a more clean system with little effort.
At least that's my thinking right now.

 

[CStrickland]

Do you stir up that rubble pile on occasion? You might already have a settling area there. And if you got the food to go down the pipe, that's where I'd expect it to accumulate. That could actually raise your nitrates and make algae worse in the long run. Also, rather than add teeth up the pipe you could dremel them out of the one you have, if you don't want to raise the water level. Anything that keeps snails out is also lessening your flood risk. Regardless of the design though, everyone that just drops flakes on the surface is losing them down the overflow if they are running their sump at the time, teeth or not.

Unless you're dosing heavy carbon, the skimmate looks awfully dry to me. Have you tried tuning it to run a little wetter?

Vacuuming the sand isn't hard. I do it every week Have you tried just blowing off the rocks with a filter sock on the drain to see what you catch?

 

[2_zoa]

Do you stir up that rubble pile on occasion? You might already have a settling area there. And if you got the food to go down the pipe, that's where I'd expect it to accumulate. That could actually raise your nitrates and make algae worse in the long run. Also, rather than add teeth up the pipe you could dremel them out of the one you have, if you don't want to raise the water level. Anything that keeps snails out is also lessening your flood risk. Regardless of the design though, everyone that just drops flakes on the surface is losing them down the overflow if they are running their sump at the time, teeth or not.

Unless you're dosing heavy carbon, the skimmate looks awfully dry to me. Have you tried tuning it to run a little wetter?

Vacuuming the sand isn't hard. I do it every week Have you tried just blowing off the rocks with a filter sock on the drain to see what you catch?

When I do a water change I use a racking cane for home brewing. It allows me to get to the bottom of the stand pipe and suck up anything that might be in there. Though, there generally isn't much in there. Or behind the rock work or even just along the rock work to siphon off the surface. No, I've never "turkey basted" or used a power head to blow off the rock work.
Racking cane like this. Just pop off the bottom cap.
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi...quipment/racking-canes/30-curved-racking-tube

The rubble pile is pretty new. It's also on its way out. For the reasons you describe. I'm going to try a marine pure block and see if it helps or if it's easier to keep things clean.
Any water that enters the sump first goes through the skimmer and then through my 100 micron filter sock.if food goes through or a fish turd goes through. It will go into the skimmer and then the filter sock.
I have no intentions of adding teeth to the standpipe. I believe GimpyFin was trying to say that, maybe a toothed overflow would have better pull further under the water surface due to them being under water.

My setup isn't at a risk for a flood from a snail. If one did cause me issue, it would simply not pump as much or any water UP into my sump. I don't have any drains to clog.

The skimmer is a little on the dry ish side. I could make it a bit more wet. However, currently there is a bit of skim in there. The body and the collection cup is 8" diameter. That thing is a beast. I'll drain it tomorrow and get a shot of the skim in a jar. You can tell me what you think.

For fun. I tested my No3 and Po4 tonight.
No3= 1ppm salifert
Po4= .009 Hanna checker. 736 model
I know these aren't very accurate as I have algae issues going on.

 

[2_zoa]

I must apologize CStrickland, my skimmer was set a bit more dry then I thought it was. I have recently started Prodibio (almost 2 months ago) to see if it would offer any benefit to my system. Maybe that's contributing to the color?
Just short of 32oz of smelly goodness.

 

[2_zoa]

I hope that my responses haven't been taken wrong. I am listening.

The sump had rock rubble, and an unknown amount of grunge from garf. The rock rubble I had kicking about and the grunge was given to me, as it was extra from a buddy's order. I've been working to remove the rock rubble so I could have more space and I've wanted to tidy up the grunge. To my surprise, there was a whole lot of crap under the rubble rock. Another nod to CStrickland. I then ran the gravel vac through the grunge. Got the grunge put in a container and put the rest of the grunge in the display. My pistol shrimp will be happy to have the pieces to build with. Scrubbed the skimmer cup and set the level a touch higher for a wetter skim.
I know all this is off topic but, it's good stuff

 

[CStrickland]

I hope that my responses haven't been taken wrong. I am listening.

I wouldn't think so, you're not coming off that way to me anyway

Maybe the question could be a little clearer. There sat lots of successful tanks that don't use teeth on the overflow, so if you're asking whether that's possible - sure. Lots of beananimals do it, but they do have a much bigger surface access than your pipe does. If you're trying to knock down algae, that's tougher. Your nutrients aren't bad, but like you say the algae is working on them too. You could be balanced just right to where the algae is beating the skimmer to it. Since you have the gravel vac maybe try cleaning 1/3 of the sand each week and see if that helps. Or more CUC like some nassarius and hermits to break down leftovers into something more skimable.

A pic of the display might help, sometimes it tells a thousand words.

 

[2_zoa]

I wouldn't think so, you're not coming off that way to me anyway

Maybe the question could be a little clearer. There sat lots of successful tanks that don't use teeth on the overflow, so if you're asking whether that's possible - sure. Lots of beananimals do it, but they do have a much bigger surface access than your pipe does. If you're trying to knock down algae, that's tougher. Your nutrients aren't bad, but like you say the algae is working on them too. You could be balanced just right to where the algae is beating the skimmer to it. Since you have the gravel vac maybe try cleaning 1/3 of the sand each week and see if that helps. Or more CUC like some nassarius and hermits to break down leftovers into something more skimable.

A pic of the display might help, sometimes it tells a thousand words.

The original purpose of this thread was about wether or not there was a way to get more to go into the overflow. I'm not sure I follow you on the reference to the beananimal over flow system? I would think any overflow fits into this. Yes, Beananimal and a lot of others try to do a coast to coast overflow. However, a good portion of them don't utlize a coast to coast. Again, I think any overflow style fits my question.

My mind works on extremes most of the time. So, thinking that I need enough flow to keep things in suspension until the overflow grabs it and sends it down to the sump. I envision a bunch of stuff like fish poo and other large particulate blowing around the tank until it becomes lodged somewhere, because my overflow isn't allowing those larger pieces to go over the falls and into my sump.

It's this thought that makes me ponder.
First. Is the current idea of an overflow the best option for us? Or, is there a better way?
Second. If one is trying to get more particulate into the sump (which is our/my chosen filter method) how can I make that the service point in my system and not need to be cleaning other areas? CStrickland, you mention you don't find bigger pieces in your filter socks. Your confirming my question.

Take a look at bare bottom tanks. Most like that method because it's far more easy to keep clean and see when it's dirty. Right? There is a key indicator that the system is getting dirty before algae happens. However, even bare bottom tanks need to have the bottom glass cleaned due to settling of larger pieces of poo and detritus. Why? In my mind it's because we aren't employing the best methods of getting the nasties to the filter.

I understand the part of skimming the surface to get "the most protein laden water" into the skimmer. Be it with teeth or without teeth. I personally don't like teeth on my overflow. I'm not asking if I should use teeth or not use teeth. I want to get more junk into my sump as it happens, not after its broken down. I also want it out of my display without weekly siphoning of the sand bed. I know there is a line that simply can't be crossed because of all the different life that's in our systems and their size. Different size creatures poo different size particles. Not to mention the ones in the sand when they poo. So, some level of siphoning of the sand may need to be done. That doesn't mean we need to siphon the sand every week or every month if we are employing the best methods.

I've thought about putting a hole in the lower section of my overflow to allow things to enter it from both the top (surface water) and the bottom for larger pieces. Like a bio cube or reef ready tanks do. Or perhaps a closed loop for flow and have that pass through a filter cartridge or use it to feed the skimmer. I don't really like the closed loop idea but....maybe the intake suction would grab the particles I'm out to get rid of. IDK?

Some look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them my thoughts. I like to think about things. Thinking and employing or striving to be better is what makes things better for all of us. I'm not an educated person so I don't know where the boundaries are. So I do a lot of different things and not follow the crowd. I simply think there is a better way. Maybe it's a more diverse population and a whole bunch of little creatures so their small excrement is able to go into the filter. Maybe it's a different way of doing things. It's going to be different for anyone involved, that's for sure.

So, the question remains......
How do I get more to go into the overflow on my tank?

As always, opinions and suggestions are welcome.