Oxymonacanthus longirostris pair enters a mixed reef environment

Some pics.

The pair.

files1.jpg
 
Couple more craptastic videos. Wheee!

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small alien said:
I'm trying to reason out this feeding preference issue a little more since I currently lack that ability to study coral polyp nutrition.

Why would this fish only eat coral polyps in the wild when many potential food sources are present. I don't don't think the answer to this has to be that the polyps have special nutrients. What if the polyps are just very available? More available than other foods. And what if the file proved to have the ability to effectively consume and utilize the coral polyps in a way most of its fellow reef inhabitants could not? So it sort of defaulted to the polyps. Rather than required them. Does that make some sense?

And the issue of why they'll eat many other foods in our tanks even when acro polyps are available. This is an interesting question and one that I don't feel has been fully answered. Why will it do this in the aquarium but not in nature even though both environments have a range of potential food items? Were these fish starved into it by Diver's Den? Did they just get so hungry they'd eat anything and then decided they liked it? You'd think they would have tried the alternative foods on the reef at some point. But maybe the polyps are so abundant, there is never a need.

I know if my 4 year-old daughter was in a room with a bowl of oatmeal and a bowl of gummy worms, she'd go for the gummy worms. Are these other prepared and frozen foods so much tastier than polyps? They certainly have much more raw food value than candy, even if they do lack some mystery nutrient.

It would be very interesting to hear an evolutionary biologist speak to how feeding preferences and nutritional needs generally evolve in the wild.

Any evolutionary biologists out there?

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Im not sure we are looking at this the same, but I can try to answer and comment on some points.

First and foremost, I cant quite swallow your explanation for polyp exclusive diets. If there is no microfauna available (and thats a GIANT and unbelievable "if"), why not eat the rest of the coral? Why only the polyp? Why not LPS or soft corals, or even other genera of hard corals. Why mostly and specifically Acropora? Granted, they may eat some other genus, but far and away, only Acropora. If you are suggesting taht its becuase ONLY acropora polyps were present, and nothing else, I have to object. Besides, the thousand of other reef fish that evolved in the same environment seems to have found the other food sources.

I dont think "starved into it at Divers Den" is the correct term or idea. But I do feel they were left to accept the foods offered, as are all captive marines. With most species typically kept, a comparable or relative diet can be subsitutted, and the fish are typically opportunistic consumers enough to be able to compensate. However, in this species' case, I dont think there exists such an item. So, what is left to do? They ate the food. And it sustains them. Maybe even justifiably so. But maybe not. We dont know.

Finally, I dont think that why or how these fish became obligate corallivores is really the important issue. But instead the fact that they ARE, and this is something they have developed over millions of years. Could we feed coral polyps to an anthias, eel, or tang as a sole diet? Certainly not, as these animals have not evolved to consume this diet. where the files have. They have developed the proper gut flora and fauna, enzymes, and metabolism to digest this specific diet.
 
jmaneyapanda said:
Im not sure we are looking at this the same, but I can try to answer and comment on some points.

First and foremost, I cant quite swallow your explanation for polyp exclusive diets. If there is no microfauna available (and thats a GIANT and unbelievable "if"), why not eat the rest of the coral? Why only the polyp? Why not LPS or soft corals, or even other genera of hard corals. Why mostly and specifically Acropora? Granted, they may eat some other genus, but far and away, only Acropora. If you are suggesting taht its becuase ONLY acropora polyps were present, and nothing else, I have to object. Besides, the thousand of other reef fish that evolved in the same environment seems to have found the other food sources.

I dont think "starved into it at Divers Den" is the correct term or idea. But I do feel they were left to accept the foods offered, as are all captive marines. With most species typically kept, a comparable or relative diet can be subsitutted, and the fish are typically opportunistic consumers enough to be able to compensate. However, in this species' case, I dont think there exists such an item. So, what is left to do? They ate the food. And it sustains them. Maybe even justifiably so. But maybe not. We dont know.

Finally, I dont think that why or how these fish became obligate corallivores is really the important issue. But instead the fact that they ARE, and this is something they have developed over millions of years. Could we feed coral polyps to an anthias, eel, or tang as a sole diet? Certainly not, as these animals have not evolved to consume this diet. where the files have. They have developed the proper gut flora and fauna, enzymes, and metabolism to digest this specific diet.
Click to expand...

Can't really argue with any of that. Except that maybe I do value the 'how' and 'why' a little more as clues to the 'are'. But, yes, they are. And the stomach contents analysis is very suggestive of a very special relationship between these fish and Acropora polyps. No question about that.

Can I ask a related question, and I won't take your opinion personally, do you feel obligate feeders should not be converted as a sort of bio-ethical principle?

Cheers. :bounce1:
 
small alien said:
Can't really argue with any of that. Except that maybe I do value the 'how' and 'why' a little more as clues to the 'are'. But, yes, they are. And the stomach contents analysis is very suggestive of a very special relationship between these fish and Acropora polyps. No question about that.

Can I ask a related question, and I won't take your opinion personally, do you feel obligate feeders should not be converted as a sort of bio-ethical principle?

Cheers. :bounce1:
Click to expand...

I also desperately want to know "how" and "why", but we need to fisrt accept that they "ARE". Thats my big point.

I dont feel at all that obligate consumer should not be converted to subsitutte foods. I hope and wish they could. But, unfortunately, I dont think they can be converted, until we understand a lot more about these animals, including what they need and get from their natural diet. If we dont understand that, I dont understand how we can claim that they dont need it, and other foods substitute it fine.

Again, this is all just my own, humble opinion.
 
A very interesting discussion. Did anyone ask Kevin HOW he converted them? I must admit to being envious of being able to keep these fish (as well as pipefish, which I am loath to try). And I am sure there are some butterfly fish I would love to keep that are in a similar mode.
 
jmaneyapanda said:
I also desperately want to know "how" and "why", but we need to fisrt accept that they "ARE". Thats my big point.

I dont feel at all that obligate consumer should not be converted to subsitutte foods. I hope and wish they could. But, unfortunately, I dont think they can be converted, until we understand a lot more about these animals, including what they need and get from their natural diet. If we dont understand that, I dont understand how we can claim that they dont need it, and other foods substitute it fine.

Again, this is all just my own, humble opinion.
Click to expand...

I appreciate that. To your mind, what would be the ideal way to approach converting an obligate feeder? And by ideal, I think we would both mean 'best for the fish'. Figuring out sources of nutritional needs and deficiencies can be quite challenging I would imagine. One may have to observe many generations if the effects of the deficiency were subtle enough such that the lifespan was not significantly affected and disease and disfiguring are not significantly present. Many humans and I would imagine many animals suffer at various times and for various reasons from various nutritional deficiencies but live reasonably functional and reasonably longish lives.

I hope we will find some insights and answers to these questions.

For now my plan is too keep them in the mixed reef where they do have access to some corals including some sps though not acropora. And feed them a wide variety of highly nutritious foods. And see how it goes.
 
Last edited:
Pulled the little red "lobo" and put it in my daughter's tank. I like that little sucker a lot and it was getting nipped all of the sudden today.

Also pulled an orange fugia with a green base that I'm partial to.

Everything else, I'm willing subject to the files. Though I'll try to pull anything before it gets croaked if it becomes the sole focus of their nibbling attention.

Reef safe? Not so much.:)
 
snorvich said:
A very interesting discussion. Did anyone ask Kevin HOW he converted them? I must admit to being envious of being able to keep these fish (as well as pipefish, which I am loath to try). And I am sure there are some butterfly fish I would love to keep that are in a similar mode.
Click to expand...

It would be super if Kevin would chime in. I would be really interested to hear. Maybe it's kind of a proprietary secret.;)
 
Water change behavior

Water change behavior

Greetings friends.

I have noticed this range of behaviors ever since these guys were in QT.

When replacing water during a water change, the behavior of the pair changes noticeably. Generally speaking, they start to interact as a pair a lot more. It looks like their hunting/grazing instincts kind of turn off and they focus all of their attention on each other.

More specifically, one, usually the male, will swim over right under the other in a very purposeful way. Generally at kind of an odd angle to the top fish. And they swim around together for a little while.

This morning, the behavior seemed amplified and expanded. The female began jerking her body here and there. Then the male started swimming up and down at an angle a little off vertical. Then the female started bobbing head down near the substrate. Not the kind of thing I've seen in Matt's videos, but sort of similar. And then she did one kind of what I'll call a "pelvic drop" where she just kind of nested down for a second.

I think they may have gotten to second base!?! I may need to put a little algae patch in there and see if I can get a spawn!

Am I misreading this behavior?

Interesting that, whatever the behavior represents, it occurs predictably with a water change (generally, this change is in the relatively early morning before the lights are on so that could be contributing). I wonder what that influx of clean water means? Could it mean to them that the tide is coming in? Anyone else have a guess?

Cheers.:spin2:
 
Here's a little video of the pair picking prawn roe off the substrate and just generally interacting.

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Have you found the male to be aggressive at all during feeding time??

With my pair, when the water is in the water stream and he is eating, he will on occasion move towards her to move her away. No real contact and the movement is subtle, but there is no doubt he is saying back off.

Otherwise they are almost always together side by side.

I am sure their more natural behavoir is due somewhat to a more realistic enviroment you have given them opposed to the somewhat sterile QT tank i have them in.

On a side note, I mentioned a week or so ago mine had stopped eating frozen but were good on flake. Well now they are happy to eat frozen again....Hikari BS to be exact. They are funny creatures.
 
Actually, my female is bigger than my male and I see her kind of scoot him out of the way more than the other way around. Will poke her head at the ocellus on his tail. I think you can see her do it once in that last video. Around the 49 second mark.

Mine have not gone off any foods that they have started eating.

I haven't seen them picking at any other corals since I removed the fungia and lobo. I do notice their behavior with eachother seems much more complex and natural since I moved them into the 75. They are so wonderful in there and so active and just cover the tank so well, that I am determined to keep them in there no matter what coral needs to be removed. I'm willing to structure the tank around them. They are amazing.

Where do everybody's files sleep? Mine are so silly. They kind of just wedge themselves into a corner of the tank, one above the other. They're just kind of pressed into the corner with their little spikes up. Almost looks like they're locking into the silicon. How do yours sleep?

Cheers.:fish1:
 
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