Pairing flame angels - plus a coral beauty buddy
- Thread starter Ocicat
- Start date
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
They exibit sexual dimorphism in that the male is always larger than the female, but no sexual dichromatism or color difference between male and female from what I've read, anyway. In addition I've seen photos of a CB pair and personally couldn't see any color differences.
I'd expect that if you can find a tiny one (1 inch) and pair it with a larger one , they'd pair.
Certainly others have had CB pairs. I know of a biologist, Ellen Thaler, who has at least 7 different pairs including CB's. Her others include multicolor, eibli, multipinus, nox & I'm not sure what else. Clearly her husband is more tolerant than mine - lol
I'd expect that if you can find a tiny one (1 inch) and pair it with a larger one , they'd pair.
Certainly others have had CB pairs. I know of a biologist, Ellen Thaler, who has at least 7 different pairs including CB's. Her others include multicolor, eibli, multipinus, nox & I'm not sure what else. Clearly her husband is more tolerant than mine - lol
Ocicat
Premium Member
Well, I have some sad news. My little flame died during the night. 
Yesterday when I got home from work, my husband informed me that she had picked out a little, out-of-the-way cave and had not moved from it since he'd been home. I watched her huddle there all evening. I knew this was bad - all day Sunday she had freely roamed among the rocks up and down the full length of the tank, picking at them like a contented little fish... Her hiding in one place with no interest in the rocks around her was very worrisome, but I didn't know what to do. I couldn't get a perfect view of her, but I couldn't see any injuries or any sign of illness other than her behavior, so I fixed some nori nearby her spot and otherwise left her alone.
In the mean time, the large flame and the coral beauty were happy and active. The CB is slowly overcoming his shyness. I saw the two of them doing some posturing that eventually ended in a brief chase (flame after the CB). This was followed several minutes later by grazing and roaming within near proximity of each other without any show of aggression.
I didn't see either of them (or anyone else) approach the little flame's cave all evening. The only signs of any aggression toward her were what I reported earlier (witnessed Sat evening/Sunday), and that didn't seem like anything intense or even bothersome to her.
I have no idea what killed her. It's possible that either the large flame or the CB decided during the day yesterday that they didn't like her after all and went after her in earnest, driving her into her little hiding place. But like I said, I saw no sign of injury, so if that happened, what actually killed her? She was eating off the rock on Sunday, so it hasn't been nearly long enough for her to starve.
She was alive at lights-out last night and dead before lights-on this morning, and from what I have seen the CB and large flame both pick beds for the night and stay there (as does the trigger), so I really doubt that one would have gone after her in the dark.
I saw everyone else this morning, and all looked fine. I did not have time to test my water this morning, but a few days ago my numbers were: Amm 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5-10, Phosphate 0, SG 1.025, pH 8.1, temp 84 (I know that's warm & am working on it, but I don't think that's the problem).
I have read that these guys are very hardy unless collected or transported in an inappropriate manner - could this be cyanide? I am really at a loss.
Yesterday when I got home from work, my husband informed me that she had picked out a little, out-of-the-way cave and had not moved from it since he'd been home. I watched her huddle there all evening. I knew this was bad - all day Sunday she had freely roamed among the rocks up and down the full length of the tank, picking at them like a contented little fish... Her hiding in one place with no interest in the rocks around her was very worrisome, but I didn't know what to do. I couldn't get a perfect view of her, but I couldn't see any injuries or any sign of illness other than her behavior, so I fixed some nori nearby her spot and otherwise left her alone.
In the mean time, the large flame and the coral beauty were happy and active. The CB is slowly overcoming his shyness. I saw the two of them doing some posturing that eventually ended in a brief chase (flame after the CB). This was followed several minutes later by grazing and roaming within near proximity of each other without any show of aggression.
I didn't see either of them (or anyone else) approach the little flame's cave all evening. The only signs of any aggression toward her were what I reported earlier (witnessed Sat evening/Sunday), and that didn't seem like anything intense or even bothersome to her.
I have no idea what killed her. It's possible that either the large flame or the CB decided during the day yesterday that they didn't like her after all and went after her in earnest, driving her into her little hiding place. But like I said, I saw no sign of injury, so if that happened, what actually killed her? She was eating off the rock on Sunday, so it hasn't been nearly long enough for her to starve.
She was alive at lights-out last night and dead before lights-on this morning, and from what I have seen the CB and large flame both pick beds for the night and stay there (as does the trigger), so I really doubt that one would have gone after her in the dark.
I saw everyone else this morning, and all looked fine. I did not have time to test my water this morning, but a few days ago my numbers were: Amm 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5-10, Phosphate 0, SG 1.025, pH 8.1, temp 84 (I know that's warm & am working on it, but I don't think that's the problem).
I have read that these guys are very hardy unless collected or transported in an inappropriate manner - could this be cyanide? I am really at a loss.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
I'm so sorry to hear that
I doubt this was caused by any aggression from the angels. But it sure could have been cyanide I hope neither of your other fish was affected.
Sometimes you never find out what the cause is. I once had a CB and male flame - both purchased at the same LFS who indeed warned me they'd had mysterious cases of their angels dying after a month or so.... but this shipment was thought to be better. Anyway I had these two fish for too long for it to be due to cyanide - I am told. I had them for maybe 7 months - at one point I nursed the flame thru some kind of illness which I believe was intestinal flagellates. Anyway about 2 months after that they both just dropped dead within 48 hours of each other. No symptoms of illness - no nothing! And no problems with my 25 or so other fish.
HTH
I doubt this was caused by any aggression from the angels. But it sure could have been cyanide I hope neither of your other fish was affected.
Sometimes you never find out what the cause is. I once had a CB and male flame - both purchased at the same LFS who indeed warned me they'd had mysterious cases of their angels dying after a month or so.... but this shipment was thought to be better. Anyway I had these two fish for too long for it to be due to cyanide - I am told. I had them for maybe 7 months - at one point I nursed the flame thru some kind of illness which I believe was intestinal flagellates. Anyway about 2 months after that they both just dropped dead within 48 hours of each other. No symptoms of illness - no nothing! And no problems with my 25 or so other fish.
HTH
Ocicat
Premium Member
Thanks, Angel*Fish. I am pretty bummed. I got the coral beauty at the same LFS as the little angel that died, and s/he seemed fine this morning. The large angel came from another LFS and also seemed fine.
When I called the store, the woman said that they don't use cyanide at the Marshall Islands or Xmas Island... Is that always true? Are there certain collection sites that you know are pretty much always cyanide-free? Or do you never really know whether it's used?
When I called the store, the woman said that they don't use cyanide at the Marshall Islands or Xmas Island... Is that always true? Are there certain collection sites that you know are pretty much always cyanide-free? Or do you never really know whether it's used?
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
There seems to be a lot of confusion on these issues.
I don't know your LFS, but I can tell you a little story about mine. I was asking the owner to get me a juvenile Herald's angel -- he said no way could he do so because those only come from Indonesia where cyanide is used and he doesn't order from Indonesia.
Well I was in there a few days later and there were boxes all over the place clearly marked "INDONESIA"
I guess my point is with so many people lying about this it's hard to separate truth from fiction. I don't think that fishes from the Marshall Islands or Xmas Island have been subjected to cyanide - but can it be proven that's where your fish came from?
And sadly, these little creatures are so sensitive and some diseases can ravage their little bodies very quickly, so without an autopsy, it's just impossible to know.
It might be wise to give your fish a dose of praziquantel - If you decide to do so , it's easy - just soak some dried brine in some Prazipro for 15 min. Rinse it well and feed to the tank...
If they won't eat it, try gutloading (pm me if you need instructions)
I don't know your LFS, but I can tell you a little story about mine. I was asking the owner to get me a juvenile Herald's angel -- he said no way could he do so because those only come from Indonesia where cyanide is used and he doesn't order from Indonesia.
Well I was in there a few days later and there were boxes all over the place clearly marked "INDONESIA"
I guess my point is with so many people lying about this it's hard to separate truth from fiction. I don't think that fishes from the Marshall Islands or Xmas Island have been subjected to cyanide - but can it be proven that's where your fish came from?
And sadly, these little creatures are so sensitive and some diseases can ravage their little bodies very quickly, so without an autopsy, it's just impossible to know.
It might be wise to give your fish a dose of praziquantel - If you decide to do so , it's easy - just soak some dried brine in some Prazipro for 15 min. Rinse it well and feed to the tank...
If they won't eat it, try gutloading (pm me if you need instructions)
Ocicat
Premium Member
Thanks, Angel.
Looks like I will have to give up on having a pair, since I can't really introduce a female later. I imagine I could take out the male and the CB and let a new female/juvenile get settled before re-introducing them, but that seems like it would be placing undue stress on those two, if I could even catch them. I am sure it's probably an unsubstantiated notion, but I feel like mated fish live happier, more natural lives, unless it's a species that is truly solitary in nature.
Looks like I will have to give up on having a pair, since I can't really introduce a female later. I imagine I could take out the male and the CB and let a new female/juvenile get settled before re-introducing them, but that seems like it would be placing undue stress on those two, if I could even catch them. I am sure it's probably an unsubstantiated notion, but I feel like mated fish live happier, more natural lives, unless it's a species that is truly solitary in nature.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption - I've never done it by adding a female to a male, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work just fine. You could always try the partition method. Maybe someone will step up & tell us if they've tried this - I'm sure someone has tried this!
Angela Short
New member
Man I truely hate to hear your sad news! And really hate to hear the ICK news. It only takes one tiny dot to fall off the fish to infest the tank so I suggest getting the fish out ASAP and gearing up for a headach if the fish all breakout in the main tank. This is why its so important to at least QT a week at the very minimum to just see if somethings up. If the fish was at the store say for 2 weeks since it was caught and ick free the 3rd week in your QT is the most critical as ick will ussually show up within 3 weeks.
So many people falsley feel safe because the fish was healthy at the store for a week or 2 only to have the senario you describe happen when they get them home.
Unless you sat and watched the fish interact for hours on end I would almost bet the other 2 angles beat her up. My PBT had my copper band butterfly at deaths door in a week after adding him and I never saw him go after her and she didn't look tore up. He just stressed her out and banged her to many times I guess. When I did notice her cowering in the corner and paid very close attention from far away he would chase/ram her if she came out. She had been with me for over a year and lasted a week after the PBT got in the tank even though she was not tore up she was harasses to death. IMO fish act totally diferent when they think you are not in the room! Truely sorry for your loss, I hate to loose a fish....
So many people falsley feel safe because the fish was healthy at the store for a week or 2 only to have the senario you describe happen when they get them home.
Unless you sat and watched the fish interact for hours on end I would almost bet the other 2 angles beat her up. My PBT had my copper band butterfly at deaths door in a week after adding him and I never saw him go after her and she didn't look tore up. He just stressed her out and banged her to many times I guess. When I did notice her cowering in the corner and paid very close attention from far away he would chase/ram her if she came out. She had been with me for over a year and lasted a week after the PBT got in the tank even though she was not tore up she was harasses to death. IMO fish act totally diferent when they think you are not in the room! Truely sorry for your loss, I hate to loose a fish....
wayne in norway
New member
It was probably stress. Small angels are quite sensitive, and I don't like to leave them in shops too long as they rarely get enough to eat. A few days and ythey're often beyond recovery.
I have paired a few angels now, I think it's quite straightforward. I would put too small flames into the 20 QT, and leave them to it. I do not have a sterile QT, I leave some large pieces of quite hairy LR in there. I f I have to copper, I pull it out, I don't even bother to pull it for hypo. You won't want to copper dwarf angels anyway. I also like to leave another ifsh in there, usually my 6line wrasse, to give them something to concentrate on beyond themselves.
I would nver not QT,, especially such small fish. There is too high a risk of them carrying something, and in a big display they may just disappear in a hole and starve to death
I have paired a few angels now, I think it's quite straightforward. I would put too small flames into the 20 QT, and leave them to it. I do not have a sterile QT, I leave some large pieces of quite hairy LR in there. I f I have to copper, I pull it out, I don't even bother to pull it for hypo. You won't want to copper dwarf angels anyway. I also like to leave another ifsh in there, usually my 6line wrasse, to give them something to concentrate on beyond themselves.
I would nver not QT,, especially such small fish. There is too high a risk of them carrying something, and in a big display they may just disappear in a hole and starve to death
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
PBT's are known for being nasty - I'm not sure this comparison is apt.
Ocicat - How are your fish?
Ocicat
Premium Member
Alive, pretty much the same as yesterday. The pinktail trigger and CB both have it. I don't know what I'll do - the trigger shouldn't be tough to catch, but the CB is another story. I took the day off work thinking I would go get 2 more cleaners, but now in the other thread it sounds like those won't really help the problem much.
The only good thing is that I don't have a ton of fish yet. Besides those 2, have the flame angel and 4 blue/green chromis.
I only have a few corals and it would be easy to instead move those to QT and do hypo, but I assume that would kill my snails and crabs.
The only good thing is that I don't have a ton of fish yet. Besides those 2, have the flame angel and 4 blue/green chromis.
I only have a few corals and it would be easy to instead move those to QT and do hypo, but I assume that would kill my snails and crabs.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Wherever you decide to do it...
If it was me, I'd sacrifice a piece or two of LR to help the angels feel more secure (something to graze) in addition to providing "unnatural" hiding places like PVC pipes, ceramic pots - whatever you have.
If it was me, I'd sacrifice a piece or two of LR to help the angels feel more secure (something to graze) in addition to providing "unnatural" hiding places like PVC pipes, ceramic pots - whatever you have.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
sorry double post
someguynamedG
Member
was just reading this post. have a couple questions. first can dwarf angels turn from male to female? also i'm looking to pair two CBs and im looking for info on color differences if any between males and females?
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Well it just so happens the news is out! Yes, at least rusty dwarf angels can - but I wouldn't try this at home - lol. (The smaller male can get seriously beaten up/killed before it happens)
I don't think there are any color differences with the coral beauties - certainly none that I know of
someguynamedG
Member
thats not what i wanted to hear.... i wanted to hear ohh yea there is this little orangeish spot right on the tale that lets you know the sex....instead i get: good luck
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
lol -
If you can find one that is only an inch long(fron tip of nose to end of tail) - it should be a female/juvenile and be fairly easy to pair with a larger CB. It's best IMO for the larger fish to be a good inch longer. They should be added to the tank at the same time or you can give the small one several days to feel at home first. If they are added together before either fish feels established, it should be fine.
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