pH keeps dropping- Why?

SaltyTX

New member
Water parameters-

Salinity 1.025
temp 78
Ammonia, Nitrite - zero
Nitrate- 1.5 ppm
phosphate- 0.6-0.8
dkH - 8.5

pH on one day is 8, next will be drop to 7.7 -7.8 thats a bit low isnt it?

I just changed half of the water yesterday to try to raise this, but apparently to no avail.

26g, been up and running for........3-4 months. light is 10ish hrs/day. Dissolved o2 is about 4 ppm. No test for CO2 in the house. Bioload, was 2 damsels and some new soft corals/zoas. 2 crabs, 2 nassarius, one shrimp.

What is going on?
 
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What are you testing with ?? have you tried the outdoor air test. Take a glass of tank water Outside, aerate for a while then test your PH, if it has risen then CO2 is to blame.
 
Well, that was my theory, nice to see it backed up by several.

2 follow up-

Could I put in some macro in the DT to help produce O2, or would it just drop overnight when respiration "ceases"

Is there any way to bubble in O2 to keep the tank well oxygenated and a more constant pH?
 
I will chime in again here. I have been through this situation before.#1 What are you testing your PH with? If its a kit then they are hard to get accurate info from. A monitor is they way to go.#2 when are you measuring PH? Lights on? LightsOff? #3 Did you try the aeration test? I am betting that CO2 is an issue here.
 
Are you testing at the same time each day? pH is at it's lowest first thing in the morning when lights are off, and at it's highest later in the day after lights have been on for hours.
 
I have tested at the same time each day (and different time) the pH is pretty "stable" (in that it is always lower) throughout the day.

Yes, I am just using a test kit- I will look into a monitor to ensure accurate readings. It would be faster to test as well

I have yet to do the aeration test, however, the brand new water is a good reading, and its good for a few hrs, then it falls off. So, with the amount of flow in the tank, I would imagine there is a good amount of gas transfer. I will try the aeration test as soon as I find my air pump (gotta find it anyways for the brine shrimp!)
 
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the phos reading seems high salty, sorry to highjack, but 0.8 is considered high for a reef
 
I had a problem where my ph would steadily decline to around 7.7 to 7.8. i ended up routing my skimmer air line out a window now my ph holds at around 8.2-8.3
 
I just did project "air line tube" last night on my tank. Running tube to get fresh air. Brought it up roughly .2 or so for the night to 7.9-8 vice 7.7 yesterday morning....a start.

Need to figure out how to hook an airline to my urchin skimmer.
 
I'm assuming a skimmer helps out tremendously for keeping o2 levels up. I personally have never tested my o2 to co2 levels, and compared to pH
 
This is from Randy's article.
In my experience with CO2, aerating the water will only help raise the ph only so much and mabey not enough if the air surounding the tank contains high levels of CO2. I pull air into a 10 gal. 24/7 and if I don't crack the window of the room the DT is in, the ph will stay down near 7.8 at the end of the day. Below 7.6 in the am. Keep in mind that I am in a small ranch and the tank is in my bedroom with the door closed at night. 3200 ppm CO2 in the am. FOWLR, so I am not as concerned as most with corals. Also I am using a Aquaclear filter which dumps water into the tank. I don't know if this is dragging the gas into the water with the pouring of water from the filter, causing the CO2 levels to be higher than if the filter had a closed loop. My ph swings can be anywhere between 7.6 and 8.1 depending how long I keep the window open for. Example is that I left the window open yesterday from early morning until 9 pm and my ph climbed from 7.65 to 8.1. This morning at 6 am it was 7.78. The Clown, Damsel, Hermitt, and Pep. Shrimp do not seem to be effected by these swings. I will be starting a 75 gal. FOWLR soon and will do more testing with a closed loop, skimmer, and levels of CO2 to go by.

Carbon Dioxide and pH

The pH of marine aquarium water is intimately tied to the amount of carbon dioxide dissolved in the water. It is also tied to the alkalinity. In fact, if water is fully aerated (that is, it is in full equilibrium with normal air) then the pH is exactly determined by the carbonate alkalinity The higher the alkalinity, the higher the pH. Figure 1 shows this relationship for seawater equilibrated with normal air (350 ppm carbon dioxide), and equilibrated with air having extra carbon dioxide as might be present in a home (1000 ppm). Clearly, the pH is lower at any given alkalinity when the carbon dioxide is raised. It is this excess carbon dioxide that leads to most low pH problems for reef aquarists.

A simple way to think of this relationship is as follows. Carbon dioxide in the air is present as CO2. When it dissolves into water, it becomes carbonic acid, H2CO3:

3. CO2 + H2O à H2CO3

The amount of H2CO3 in the water (when fully aerated) is not dependent on pH, but only on the amount of carbon dioxide in the air (and somewhat on other factors, such as temperature and salinity). For systems not at equilibrium with the air around them, which includes many reef aquaria, the aquarium can be thought of "as if" it were in equilibrium with a certain amount of CO2 in the air, which is effectively defined by the amount of H2CO3 in the water. Consequently, if an aquarium (or the air it is being equilibrated with) has "excess CO2" in it, that means that it has excess H2CO3. This excess H2CO3, in turn, means the pH will fall, as shown below.

Seawater contains a mixture of carbonic acid, bicarbonate, and carbonate that are always in equilibrium with each other:

4. H2CO3 ßà H+ + HCO3- ßà 2H+ + CO3--

Equation 4 shows that if an aquarium has excess H2CO3, some if it dissociates (breaks apart) into more H+, HCO3-, and CO3--. Consequently, because of this extra H+, the pH will be lower than if there were less CO2/H2CO3 in it. If seawater has a huge excess of CO2, the pH can be as low as pH 4-6. Equilibrating my aquarium water with carbon dioxide at 1 atmosphere resulted in a pH of 5.0, although that low a value would be unlikely to be attained in a reef aquarium as the substrate and coral skeletons would buffer it as they dissolved. My aquarium water in equilibrium with 1 atmosphere of carbon dioxide and excess solid aragonite (a crystalline form of calcium carbonate that is the same form present in coral skeletons) resulted in a pH of 5.8.

Figures 2-5 show graphically some of the ways of raising pH in aquaria. For example, if the aquarium has an alkalinity of 3 meq/L (8.4 dKH) and has a pH of 7.93, then the aquarium must have excess CO2 in it (or else the pH would be just over 8.3). Ways to raise pH include:

Aerating the water with "normal air," driving out the excess carbon dioxide, will move the aquarium parameters along the green line of Figure 3, raising pH to just over pH 8.3. This effect is also what would happen if the growth of macroalgae were used to absorb some of the excess carbon dioxide, although it is rare for that effect to be able to move it all the way along the green line to above pH 8.3.

Raising the alkalinity, even if it still has the "excess CO2" in it, will raise pH by moving the aquarium parameters along the green line in Figure 4, to a pH of about 8.1 at an alkalinity of 4.5 meq/L (12.6 dKH).

Using limewater (kalkwasser) to deplete the excess CO2 (to normal levels), and also to raise the alkalinity (to 4 meq/L) could move the curve along the green line in Figure 5, resulting in a pH over 8.4 and an alkalinity of 4 meq/L (11.2 dKH).
 
Ok.....I understand the article. And have talked with my wife who deals with aquatic water chemistry (recently published by the way :) )

What is the best course of action- Here is what I have done in the past 2 days- All windows open in the house for almost the entire day. pH is still low- no changes, night or day. I made up some new water did a water change (was low on water since I had been running with the lid off for 3 days). I had some excess water and have left that on the counter undisturbed for 24 hrs. The tank is back down to 7.7 and the undisturbed water- still holding at 8.3ish. I did the aeration test- it was essentially unchanged from the tank pH, raised very slightly, but not above 8. I have to toss the house CO2 aside at this point and figure out what is causing the drop and what the best resolution is for the tank's long term pH.

Kalk doser (not entirely sure about that process...)?

I dont have a sump and wont be installing one in this tank.
 
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well. I guess I have to expound on my aeration test results--according to your aeration test one of the tests is way off.....I doubt highly its the pH because the new water reads well, the only option is the alkalinity. *See edit- At this point, I do not believe either pH or alkalinity test to be way off on their measurements, but rather that the alkalinity is being "consumed" very rapidly.
*

I do know I have a sponge that may be soaking up the calcium like no other (I believe it to be a calcareous sponge versus a silaceous) as well as other calcareous animals building shells at astronomical rates which furthers aids your theory that the alkalinity test being off.

So, how to raise alkalinity safely? Would a kalk drip be the best way to go? or one of those ionic solutions be better?

*** Edit****

I went out on a limb here (and I think it would be a fantastic idea to add to your article Randy,maybe I missed it).. I tested the alkalinity in the tank.....versus my now 3 day stagnant water. Major difference, 12 for the KH in the standing water versus 8ish for the tank water. The different appears within 24-36 hours. What "eats up" alkalinity so fast, is it possible to have such explosive/demanding growth with so few critters?

As a recap for tank/bio load- I have 2 fish, about 5 snails, one biggish sponge, a pulsing xenia, GSP, a few zoas, one mushroom and a mystery coral.
 
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