Phosphate - when to be concerned?

[QuiGonJay]

Trying to figure out a bubble algae bloom. Battling for 3 months, water changes every other week, manual scrubbing and siphoning. Nitrates have been 10 the whole time, normal for my tank. Phosphates are .08 to .1 ppm. High but not crazy. Ca 430, alk 8.3, mg 1340. Getting ready to start gfo in a small media reactor but getting cold feet. Will it make anything else worse? Only a 45 gallon tank with probably 30 to 35 actual gallons factoring in live rock. Probably would use a small amount of gfo. Should I worry or charge ahead?

Appreciate any and all advice!

J

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[billdogg]

I would start the GFO. Either a TLF 150 HOB reactor or a BRS canister if you have a sump. Start with 1/2 of what they recommend, but change it out frequently, and within a couple weeks, use the suggested amount. It will exhaust itself pretty quickly, especially at first. After you get things under control, you can go to ~ monthly changes.

My reasoning is this: Your PO4 is .08-.1 with bubble algae. If you took the bubble algae out of the equation it would be considerably higher and is only where it is now because the algae is consuming it. Your Nitrates would be higher as well. You might also want to step up the frequency and amount of the water changes. Assuming that you are using RO/DI water to make up your fresh salt mix that can only help on both accounts.

Do you have a skimmer? That will help with the nutrient control as well. Not an absolute necessity, but it will make your life easier by increasing the stability of the overall system.

 

[anthonys51]

why dont you try buying an emerald crab. just one maybe 2 in your size tank.
also you say water changes, how many gallons a week are you doing. if you have nitrates and phosphates i would be doing 20 percent a week. also how many fish do you have in your tank and try feeding them frozen food for a month. frozen food is like 85 percent water, so a lot hard to overfeed.

 

[fishchef]

Your phosphate is not that high. Although, how are you testing? If your using a Hanna then they're correct. If not it could be much higher. GFO is serious stuff and not to be used without caution. Small amounts at first.

 

[QuiGonJay]

To answer a few questions, Rodi water always, I feed frozen (thawed and strained) every other day, water changes are normally 15% every other week though this week was closer to 25. Red sea test kit not hanna. Use a skimmer but don't seem to get a ton of skimmer, though the plastic of the skimmer cup is always coated in gunk, just not a lot of liquid sludge. What are the risks of gfo other than decreasing your alk? Why is it 'serious stuff?'

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[fishchef]

To answer a few questions, Rodi water always, I feed frozen (thawed and strained) every other day, water changes are normally 15% every other week though this week was closer to 25. Red sea test kit not hanna. Use a skimmer but don't seem to get a ton of skimmer, though the plastic of the skimmer cup is always coated in gunk, just not a lot of liquid sludge. What are the risks of gfo other than decreasing your alk? Why is it 'serious stuff?'

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Once you get a proper reading on PO4, have your water tested with a Hanna or similar digital device, color tests are just not that accurate on values such as .03ppm, etc. GFO can strip your water of a needed nutrient for life, phosphate.
It looks like your maintaining low phosphate, but based on your Red Sea test we really don't know that. We were having tremendous growth of our SPS and LPS. Our Salifert test was showing zero and on a Hanna it came up .50ppm. The GFO was months old. Started watching it more closely, but never tried to hit low numbers. When it got about .19 which took about a month or two then I switched out the GFO. Used about 150 grams for 100 gal actual volume, which is below amount suggested. Continued to have great LPS growth, etc. In reality I question its use and on a new system I may rethink how we would control phosphate.

 

[QuiGonJay]

Thanks, yes colors on the phosphate test are very tough. Will look into hanna. If showing high, will try gfo but at a very low dose.

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[nmotz]

+1 for emerald crabs. Yes, they're hit or miss, but they definitely eat the bubble algae in my tank

 

[ryeguyy84]

1/4 rigid hose cut to a point and suck out all the bubbles trying not to break them. I dealt with bubble algae for a long time with .02 ppm phosphate on my Hanna meter. I did my tank in sections then took care of whatever was left. You have to be vigilant with getting the bubbles out. I tried emerald crabs, lights out for 3 days, GFO, massive water changes (50% weekly) this is the only thing that worked.

 

[xCry0x]

1/4 rigid hose cut to a point and suck out all the bubbles trying not to break them. I dealt with bubble algae for a long time with .02 ppm phosphate on my Hanna meter. I did my tank in sections then took care of whatever was left. You have to be vigilant with getting the bubbles out. I tried emerald crabs, lights out for 3 days, GFO, massive water changes (50% weekly) this is the only thing that worked.

^ That

I am of the opinion that bubble algae can grow on dry land -- the stuff doesn't seem to just "stop growing" like hair algae does when you get nutrients under control.

 

[QuiGonJay]

Well that's depressing . . . I actually have been removing a good 1/4 cup every water change but with all the nooks and crannies in the live rock it is nearly impossible to gather it all. Was able to control it in my smaller tank but I fear I'm losing the battle in this one . . .

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[QuiGonJay]

I'm going to test your theory though and see how long it lasts out of the water next time. did that with an isopod and that suckered lived for over 3 months in 2 oz of water, no food and no aeration (just a small plastic jar). So the whole 'wait 90 plus days to starve parasites with no fish' is very true!

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[xCry0x]

Hah -- I pulled it and left it on the hood of my tank. It definitely dries up =)

But in my tank I will have 0 hair algae but bubble algae still grows. Stuff is awful and manages to sneak in.

 

[ryeguyy84]

I spent hours in front of my tank manually plucking the bubbles with my 1/4 hose, you will win the battle it just really sucks.

Fire also kills them. . . I went a little crazy plucking them

 

[QuiGonJay]

Well, got a digital phosphate kit to test my numbers and it read 0. Did it twice. Manual was .08. So I'm guessing that means I probably have too much phosphate but it's getting sucked out of the water column and into the damn algae. Launching small gfo in reactor this weekend and still sucking/ripping away. I think I may burn some too just for the therapy.

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[fishchef]

Well, got a digital phosphate kit to test my numbers and it read 0. Did it twice. Manual was .08. So I'm guessing that means I probably have too much phosphate but it's getting sucked out of the water column and into the damn algae. Launching small gfo in reactor this weekend and still sucking/ripping away. I think I may burn some too just for the therapy.

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I'm not sure about your reasoning. If your digital gave you a zero why start the GFO?

 

[QuiGonJay]

Well, Something has clearly changed, and im out of suspects. I have been fighting this for 3 months. Nitrates are also low, but with skimmer, live rock and carbon, I should have enough going on to believe that reading is legit. Water changes and weekly scrubbing and manual removal and the algae won't stop. I feed small amounts every other day, have a decent clean up crew, etc. And only 4 small fish (not over crowded). I have eliminated most suspects I can think of and have read several places that it's possible to actually have phosphates that are being gobbled up as fuel for algae which still give low readings when tested as its just not hanging around in the water column long enough. Entirely possible the gfo does nothing, but I'm frustrated enough to give it a try, otherwise I will always wonder if it could have helped. Just going to start with low doses as I don't want all phosphates gone. Marine water chemistry is a harsh mistress . . .

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[fishchef]

I just think that your doing a great job keeping your PO4 low without GFO. Just keeping up your maintenance program, removing said algae, etc. will eventually solve the issue. Its a natural balance and GFO is such a strong chemical measure, not very organic. Be sure to blow off your rock with a turkey baster once in a while or during partials.

 

[QuiGonJay]

Thanks. Yes, I do that too. Guess it's just the frustration of doing everything I can think of right but still getting hosed. The gfo has been sitting at my house for over a week now. I really do try to avoid chemicals if I can, as you say, I don't want to make things worse. Added a small rock urchin to step up the mowing. Won't touch the bubble but should help with the rest. That was the other change, urchin left the tank around the same time this started so might have been the proverbial straw. Who knows, but having had one before for over a year, he does a good job.

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[QuiGonJay]

Appreciate all the advice.

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