Pipefish with Ich - Any treatment apart from lower salinity?

[TheAngler]

That is what I am afraid of, but I don't really see any solution here. Even if I set up a hospital tank, and treated with copper (assuming the pipefish survived this), then the pipefish would most likely starve, since they will only eat live copepods (from my live rock) which would be killed by the copper (right?).

Is there another effective way to treat? I'm stumpted. If I didn't have the picky pipefish, I'd be able to figure something out, but if I can't move them from the Display tank, I don't see a point in moving the other other fish.

I'd love any advice as to how to remedy this.

Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[DanU]

Your dose of 1 ml/gal for the formalin is correct for 37% strength. Bath should be for 45 minutes. Formalin displaces O2, so an airline should be added.

Most copepods should survive the copper treatment. Egg production may slow down a bit but I would not expect them to be wiped out by the copper.

Dan

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks Dan. What do think about just doing the dips as opposed to the full on copper treatment? In your opinion, would the dips be enough to rid the tank of Ich?

If I need to go the copper/hospital tank, I will. I don't want to continue to battle this. My firefish has probably 15 spots again.

Can someone help give advice on how I can maintain a copepod population in the hospital tank if I'm treating with copper? I currently have a fuge with macro & a chunk of live rock that supports them + macro in the DT. If I were to move the small live rock and a chunk of my macro to the hospital tank and then order more live pods, start growing them in a container at my house, and then feeding them to my hospital tank...Would the copepods live long enough in the hospital tank to feed my pipefish who just graze all day on them?

Another couple questions I have are:

-Would I dose the pipefish/all fish in the hospital tank at a normal rate (per cupermine directions)? Or would I alter that rate since the pipefish are sensitive?

-What size hospital tank would I need for my 2 perc clowns, 1 firefish, 2 banded pipes (4-5 inches)? 10 or 20 gallon?

What a mess. I hate the though of a harsh treatment, since the pipefish are acting fine apart from a having a spot or two pop up here or there. Thanks so much for all the feedback! It is much appreciated!

 

[rayjay]

See http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196 for a decent explanation of the life cycle and why just treating the fish in a hospital tank, is by itself not going to take care of the problem in the tank.
IME, it takes too long to get a pod culture going that is going to sustain your pipe fish in the hospital tank so you would have to buy pods online or from an LFS for the duration.
You DON'T want to take any from the tank or sump/refugium of that system, and put in the quarantine tank as you may transfer other stages of the ich back to the hospital tank, prolonging the time for treatment each time you have a possible transfer.
With that fish load I would be going with the 20g as a minimum size.
I can't help with dosage as I don't use copper.
Many of us have ich in our tanks, but by keeping the stresses out of the tanks, immune systems are not compromised, making it harder for the ich to have a breakout.

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks rayjay. I realize that I'd have to leave the display tank without any fish in it for 9or so weeks. Is this what you are refering to? I didn't realize the tomities could live up to 28 days before hitting infectious stage.

I was thinking it would be okay to put the pods in initially (when I put the fish in the hospital tank) on the notion that the copper would kill the Ich along with it, but I guess you're right, the Ich could be in a resistant stage to the copper. Local fish store only has Tigris, but I've bought the warm water ones online to seed the fuge.

If you have Ich in your tank, then what do you do to keep stresses out? I have been feeding garlic, and just bought some vitamines. Are you suggesting that I dose with vitamines/garlic and let the Ich run it's course? Or what would you suggest? My local fish store advised me to let it run it's course without treatment. I feel bad for the fish. I hate the thought of me possibly letting them die without treatment, but I wonder if it would just be worse to stress them with copper and a new home...and since my local fish store does not quarentine and claims to have Ich in their system, I just see my system getting it right back with the next rock/fish/clam/coral whatever I add next. That is why I was thinking I'd try to up immune systems (garlic/vitamines) and do some dips if that was what it took...I'm open to trying whatever. I just don't want to make matters worse (i.e. killing the fish in the process).

What has worked for you rayjay?

Thanks again, and a big thank you from my fish!

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks rayjay. I realize that I'd have to leave the display tank without any fish in it for 9or so weeks. Is this what you are refering to? I didn't realize the tomities could live up to 28 days before hitting infectious stage.

I was thinking it would be okay to put the pods in initially (when I put the fish in the hospital tank) on the notion that the copper would kill the Ich along with it, but I guess you're right, the Ich could be in a resistant stage to the copper. Local fish store only has Tigris, but I've bought the warm water ones online to seed the fuge.

If you have Ich in your tank, then what do you do to keep stresses out? I have been feeding garlic, and just bought some vitamines. Are you suggesting that I dose with vitamines/garlic and let the Ich run it's course? Or what would you suggest? My local fish store advised me to let it run it's course without treatment. I feel bad for the fish. I hate the thought of me possibly letting them die without treatment, but I wonder if it would just be worse to stress them with copper and a new home...and since my local fish store does not quarentine and claims to have Ich in their system, I just see my system getting it right back with the next rock/fish/clam/coral whatever I add next. That is why I was thinking I'd try to up immune systems (garlic/vitamines) and do some dips if that was what it took...I'm open to trying whatever. I just don't want to make matters worse (i.e. killing the fish in the process).

What has worked for you rayjay?

Thanks again, and a big thank you from my fish!

 

[rayjay]

I haven't had to do anything about ich for many years now. When I did, I used hyposalinity at 1.0075 which is lower than most recommended but I had problems when I used 1.009.
As for stress free, it basically means doing some research into the needs of the inhabitants of the tank to make sure they are compatible and in a tank sized appropriate for their needs. Beyond that it's just housekeeping.
I never use anything like garlic or any other treatments, but now I use Sanolife Mic-F that is made up of strains of bacteria.
By keeping the good bacteria levels up, it makes it much harder for the nasties to get a strong foothold.
It's especially a great aid for raising seahorse fry, but I add it daily to my adult seahorses as well.
I feel a bit weird using it because many years ago, we had the "Sano wars" and I was siding with the majority that is was a useless product. Now, I use it and recommend it.

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks for the tip on the probiotics! I was looking for a product, but couldn't locate one. I'm a firm believer in natural health. I myself, take heafty doses of probiotics!

So today, the pipes have new visible spots This tank is an endless money pit...My husband is not into it, and counts every dollar I spend on it...However, I'm still going to do what I need to do. I have located a tank setup, 20 gallon. Now I need to figure out the best strategy for treatment.

-If I do hyposalinity, do I need a refractometer or will a hydrometer be sufficiant?

-How do I get this tank cycled quick? I normally cycle with live rock/sand etc. I have Prime, and also some filter media (from my current Ich tank) that I could use. Should I not use the filter media? I have some Chemi-Pure, Carbon, and nitrate sponge that have been in my tank and pulled (and placed in saltwater) 15 days ago to run the Herbtana. I also have filter floss in my overflow and on my powerhead that could supply biofiltration/cycling start to the Hospital tank. Should I use any of this?

-Should I use any of the water from my current tank?

-Will macro/marine pods survive at the lower salinity levels?

Guess I know what I'm doing this weekend! Hopefully I'll have enough info to get started tonight.

Again, truly grateful for the help!

 

[funkejj]

We just medicated a horse for 10 days for a skin erosion. The tank was as bare as it gets. We had hitching posts and that was it. Did 50% water change a day and added prime daily to control the ammonia. If you put rock in a tank treating it for ich you are being counter productive needs to be a bare tank.

 

[rayjay]

I use no filtration in a hospital tank, and use new aged salt water.
I change 50% of the water daily, adding the appropriate medications if I'm using any.
I use open ended air lines for water movement, and, I add ChlorAm-X for ammonia control.
I don't know if pods will survive as I've never used them in a hospital tank.
I've use hyposalinity in a display tank by removing anything that could be affected and placing them in another tank for the duration but I've only done that once.

 

[TheAngler]

I've decided to do hyposalinity in a HT after a formalin dip. I just ordered a refractometer, new cheato, and enough Tisbe pods to start culturing my own in a new 10 gal.

I'm worried about keeping the salinity at the right level with doing a water change daily, but I guess if the water is pre-mixed, it should stay at a safe level.

Can I put my current cheato into the hospital tank (when I put the fish in) and then not put in anything else from my DT after that? Won't the lowering of salinity be enough to kill the Ich from the cheato as well (I know it would be in a different stage...so maybe that's not good)? I've read that some people use water from their display tank to start a hospital tank. The issue is, I need to wait for the new pods to be delivered, if it's a big issue, I can wait.

Thanks!

 

[rayjay]

First, mark the original water level with tape or something and then morning and evening, and just before water changes, add water to bring the level back to the mark. This maintains the salinity level.
Then, just make sure when you do the water change, make the salinity exactly the same as the Hospital tank.
Yes some people do add water from their tank, and others are like me and use new water.
Sorry, I have no knowledge or experience with chaeto.
Do you know that they will eat tisbe pods?
Culturing of them is a slow process so you need to be continually buying more as they won't repopulate fast enough for what you need.

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks Rayjay, marking the tank is a good idea.

I'll use new water for the tank.

I've done quite a bit of research on Tisbe pods and they are the ones that normally populate the tank. When I got the pipes about a month ago, I noticed that they weren't eating the Cyclopeeze (the the LFS) said to feed them...But the LFS had only had them a day when I bought them. When I saw that they were only picking at my rock/glass/macro I did some research and seeded my fuge with Tisbe. I am assuming this is what they are eating, though there many be some other pods that are populating my tank. The pipes are definitely not shrinking and one is getting pretty round. I almost wonder if she's pregnant.

I bought 2-16 oz. bottles of tisbe. I thought I'd throw them all in a tank with chaeto and a pump and they should be good. Then I'd take some out every day and put them in the hospital tank and continue to try to feed cyclopeeze. I guess I'll have to watch the salinity coming from the tisbe tank too, and I won't really have a good idea of how many I'm putting in.

To be safe, I was going to do hypo for 8 weeks, and leaving the display fallow for 10 weeks. Is this too long for hypo?

Thanks!

 

[rayjay]

I've always recommended a MINIMUM of six weeks for hypo and then several more weeks bringing the s.g. back up. You can go down in a hurry but you have to go back up very slowly.
IMO, the longer the better, especially for leaving the DT fishless.
SHE won't be pregnant as SHE only produces the eggs. HE will be the pregnant one.
Don't add the tisbe water to the hospital tank, just mesh them out and put them in.
You can gradually lower the tisbe tank water a bit so there isn't quite as much shock from the transfer.

 

[TheAngler]

Great, that's what I will do then!

Thanks so much!

 

[TheAngler]

My Refractometer came and it doesn't measure salinity levels below 20 and specific gravity below 1.015. My local fish store has one but it only measures down to the same levels.

My pipes were looking bad, so I did a formalin dip and put them in the HT. I have not yet began to lower the salinity since all I have is a hydrometer...I was going to begin to lower the level today, but I am stumped.

My fish look bad. The clowns look whitish (and didn't before the dip), the pipes are dragging their faces on the ground. The firefish is yellowish. so sad.

How do I measure for hyposalinity without a refractometer? Do others have this issue? Apparently only the digital ones go low enough...$200.

 

[rayjay]

Sorry, I can't help on that as I've never owned a refractometer.
For 19yrs now I've use SeaTest swing arm hydrometers that every one nowadays say are no good.
IMO, they work just fine as long as you keep them clean and calibrate them against a known standard once in a while.
I use a certified calibrated hydrometer and cylinder to calibrate mine, especially when I do hyposalinity.
I do know that when using the standard salt refractometers for hypo, you need to calibrate it with water, not the calibration fluids that are normally recommended.
If you use a standard 35 solution, there will be error at the lower end you want to use for hypo but less error if you calibrate with water.
Of course, if you have a more expensive seawater refractometer then this doesn't apply.
All I can suggest is to post on a local forum and see if someone around you has a suitable device to calibrate your hydrometer IN THE RANGE YOU WISH TO DO HYPO AT.

 

[TheAngler]

Thanks rayjay. I'll see if I can find someone to calibrate mine to.