Plenum in a refugium?

[Beaner3]

Has anyone ever tried this before? I'm finishing up my acrylic sump today, 60"x14"x15"tall, with a good 30" of it being dedicated refugium, a total of 60 gallons in the sump, with 30 gallons of it being fuge. I put a baffle in the fuge for a 6" deep sand bed and was wondering if a plenum in the fuge would be viable. I was thinking about using drilled 1/2" pvc tubing on the floor of it with all the goodies on top. What do you think?

 

[KyleO]

If I had mine to do over I would. I have read several articles where it is a good idea to put aside a place for seasquirts and other filtering inverts that prefer perpetual darkness.

It is all about water polishing!!!!

Question: will your fuge/sump design allow for your pods to trickle into your main tank?

 

[Beaner3]

Cool! do you think that denitrification will still take place and be effective in the smaller tank? And to answer your question, no, it won't be gravity fed, it's all going to be under my aquarium,....Having a tough time posting pics, otherwise I'd show you what I mean.

 

[Beaner3]

Here is the sump that I built, Took this pic today, Have any of you ever used a nautilus skimmer before? I got a smoking deal on it off of ebay.

The sump is 61" long by 14" front to back by 15" high. The slotted fuge divider I put in at 30 1/2", So half of it is fuge.....Would a plenum work in there?

 

[KyleO]

So the water take up is on the sump side?

 

[Beaner3]

Hey kyle,

I'm going to have the water drain in from the aquarium between the slotted fuge baffle and the bubble traps, I was going to use one of those 200 micron filter socks for the 1 1/2" drain, then run the fuge with like a maxi jet or something that will give me a slower flow rate, I have a mag drive #7 that came with the nautilus and a quiet one 4000 for circulation. I'm kind of a fan of the simple approach, more gear, the more stuff to fail on you, I really like to try and replicate the natural process. Would I need to put an effluent discharge in the fuge side if i was to run a plenum? Thanks for answering me kyle!

 

[KyleO]

Beaner3,

I am a big fan of the simple approach also, and agree that less gear means less headaches. Looking at your sump/fuge, it strikes me that all you need to do is extend the second divider (on the far side of this picture) up to about 2 inches below the top of the slotted fuge divider. Have your output from the tank go into the far chamber utilizing your filter sock (which is a good idea by the way). This will give you the volume you are looking for in the fuge.

Have your take up pump in the sump side and run your plenum on that side next to the nautilus.

This will do 3 things. It will give you enough flow across the top of your refugium along with eliminating the need for a pump on that side. With a few pieces of LR you will have plenty of safe places for pods to hang out and enough flow for your macro-algae.

This design will also give the plenum the flow it needs without impeding your refugium. You will have your protein skimming along with "water polishing" from the plenum on the sump side so the water going back into your tank will be pristine. BTW, you also need a way for the pods to trickle into your main tank.

The third, and often overlooked consideration is that you will have enough room in your sump/fuge to sustain the volume of water necessary to not overflow in the case of a pump failure or power outage (most important). I am assuming that you are skimming with an overflow from your tank to the sump/fuge.

Put a nice sized UPS on the take up pump alone and you are set for at least a few hours in the case of a power outage.

I say that because that just happened to me yesterday. The power compact ballast shorted and popped the circuit. I had a hard time figuring out what was wrong because other than the light on my fuge being out, I could not immediately identify what the problem was. My sump and fuge were just going right along and I know it had been at least two hours.

Hope that helps.............

 

[Beaner3]

Sweet! thanks for the info, I'm going to tweak it a little more, then I'll post another pic. I was thinking of painting the back of it black as well.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There do not appear to be very many successful plenums out there. I do not see any great advantage over the RDSB.

You may have already done the research, but if you have not... I would spent a LOT of time reading about plenums and the pros and cons.

I have come to the conclusion that there are not really any pros and a lot of cons. It would also appear that those who claim to run plenum based systems must do a LOT to keep them running (contrary to what they would have you believe).

I have formed this opinion from exhaustive reading here at RC and other reef related sites. I could be 100% wrong.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10038473#post10038473 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
There do not appear to be very many successful plenums out there. I do not see any great advantage over the RDSB.

You may have already done the research, but if you have not... I would spent a LOT of time reading about plenums and the pros and cons.

I have come to the conclusion that there are not really any pros and a lot of cons. It would also appear that those who claim to run plenum based systems must do a LOT to keep them running (contrary to what they would have you believe).

I have formed this opinion from exhaustive reading here at RC and other reef related sites. I could be 100% wrong.

You're kidding right? If you've really done the research, you'd know that they do work. There are plenum systems that have gone 10 years without water changes and consistently (after an initial 4 months) maintain nutrient poor water quality, near the same levels as the reef. This has been well documented from Dr Jaubert, Sprung, Delbeek, Paletta, Calfo and so many more.... After the initial SeaScope article back in the early 90s, ran for 3 years and I was maintaining Acroporas, including Caribean acros, A palmata and A cervicornis. What maintenance? I did a water change every few months and spent a lot of effort maintaining Ca and Alk levels due to the fast growth of the acros.... I had my water tested at the university that I was at and found that NO3 and PO4 were near NSW levels.... I recently set up a plenum system in a 120, and while it's only been running a couple of months (2-3), I have 10 anthias, 1 Copperbanded Buttlerfly, 4 green chromis, 1 yellow tang, and 1 blue hippo tang among a lot of spp. Did I mention that I feed twice daily with frozen foods like Mysis and cyclopees and other stuff? On a LaMotte NO3 test kit, I'm measuring ~2ppm (in about 2 months that'll be close to undetectable), and PO4 at 0ppm with the Deltec Merck.

As for the originator of the post, yes, you can do a plenum within your refugium. But when the plenum matures, it'll out compete for nutrients and your algae will most likely die.

Don't research, do it and then inform yourself with the data you collect. This is the internet after all....

 

[BeanAnimal]

No I am not kidding... I said I formed my opinion by reading (thousands of posts here and at other websites.). I am very aware of the research done by Jaubert, Sprung etc. I also know Anthonys take as well (he is the founder of our local club).

There has been a lot of debate about the Jaubert system and other "maintenance" that may have accounted for the success as well. All of this can be found by doing the "research" that you don't advocate.

DO I believe everything I read? Of course not. However, there is as a LOT of supporting information for BOTH sides of the debate.

The MAJOR questions is wether or not the plenum itself can be pointed to as the source of the successful system, or can other factors be attributed to the success.

I have never owned a plenum system, and also stated that I could be 100% wrong. On the same token, there is no shortage of information or opinion supporting the fact that plenums are not maintenance free or offer benefits that DSBs do not.

I fear that this is similar to the DSB debate itself and will not get solved here and my internet was certainly not to start a debate. If you notice, I did clearly state that it was OPINION and could easily be wrong!

 

[Beaner3]

Jesus take it easy, I just wanted to know if a plenum would work in a reduced flow 30 gallon refugium, I want to experiment with it , but if anyone has had any negative or positive effects from having a plenum,....in a refugium, I would like to know, without any bickering, stony coral, thank you for your input, That is what I am hoping to do with the plenum is reduce my nitrates to zippo.

But you think it would rob any caulerpa or chaeto of PO4, before they were able to process it, and keep the pH balanced during night lighting?

BeanAnimal,
whats with the hostility man? I too have read things, but if that is all you do, without trying it, you will never really know for sure will you? I've seen you throw barbs at people in other threads too, why shoot down an idea before you've even tried it your self?

I think I'm going to give it a shot, if it does'nt work, I learned my lesson before any corals were even added, If it does, well hey, you know I'm going to be the first one posting pics! (in like 6 months!)

I'll try and be diligent with my postings on this one and let everyone know how it works!

 

[KyleO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10054871#post10054871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3
But you think it would rob any caulerpa or chaeto of PO4, before they were able to process it, and keep the pH balanced during night lighting?

Check my earlier response about how I thought you should arrange input and output. The way I have it is the refugium part of the sump gets first crack at the PO4 and then the plenum and skimmer clean up the rest................wouldn't that take care of the concern that the macro will get starved out?

 

[Beaner3]

Dammit Kyle you are right! The goodies would have first crack at the PO4 if I direct drained the main tank into the fuge. Why didn't you say that in the first place Do you think I would need to "T" off the drain and put a ball valve on the fuge side to slow my flow down? My circ pump is rated for 700 GPH and I dont think I want all that flowing through my fuge.

Also, do you think in case of a circ pump failure (knock on wood) a powerhead running the fuge would keep that volume of water from going south on me, and be a little easier to really control the flow rate? Thanks again man. Geez your up late too. I'm tipping for the night, I'll check back tomorrow on this.

 

[BeanAnimal]

BeanAnimal,
whats with the hostility man? I too have read things, but if that is all you do, without trying it, you will never really know for sure will you? I've seen you throw barbs at people in other threads too, why shoot down an idea before you've even tried it your self?

Hostility? Get a grip. You actually think that the posts in this thread are hostile? You think so SO MUCH that you are willing to basically attack me? As stony said, "YOUR KIDDING RIGHT".

If anybody was hostile it was stony with his "your kidding right..." and I would not consider that hostile at all. He disagrees and gave his reasons in an articulate manner. I responded to HIS comments and kindly gave the reason that I disagreed.

Why do people like you start crying and complaining anytime somebody says something you do not agree with. It gets VERY old. If you ALREADY knew the answer, why did you ask the question in the first place? It would appear that YOU only asked so that you could get answers supporting your idea. DO YOU ALWAYS ONLY LISTEN TO WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?

You just babbled about me throwing barbs and shooting down ideas. Is that NOT JUST WHAT YOU DID regarding my KINDLY STATED OPINION. You attacked me personally and at the same time shot down my idea. Kind of ironic I think. It always is with guys like you

Let me remind you. YOU ASKED FOR OPINION. I GAVE YOU MY OPINION AND ALSO STATED THAT IT VERY WELL MAY BE WRONG. I DID SO IN A KIND AND POLITE MANNER. NOW YOUR KICKING UP A FUSS BECAUSE IT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANTED TO HEAR!!! GOOD GRIEF MAN.

Am I yelling? Of course I am. This kind of nonsense from people like you gets so old. Could I have ignored your utterly stupid comment? of course I could have, but the problem is that the folks that act like you are starting to multiply like little bunnies that get offended at the drop of a hat. Every time I turn around one of you is starting trouble because you did not like an opinion and felt offended by somebody else's. Do you even know what HOSTILE means? Have you ever REALLY been offended?

Now that YOU have opened the can of worms and called me hostile:

You have to be rather naive to think that trying an idea is the only way to know if it works. That is nonsense. Your trying to paint me as ignorant because I gave an opinion without trying something? You are doing so after I said that I could be wrong but it was MY OPINION. Is it NO YOU who is attacking me and acting in a hostile manner?

Furthermore, why are you ASKING instead of just trying? Your comments are kind of silly now that you look back aren't they?

Remember beaner. OTHERS HAVE TRIED THIS. Some report success and some report failure, others report no benefit or problems and yet others report benefits with no problems. Is that NOT EXACTLY WHY YOU OPENED A THREAD AND ASKED FOR OPINION TO CLARIFY WHAT YOU HAD READ AND TO HELP YOU MAKE A DECISION? It is a public forum where people trade ideas and experiences. They trade what they have read and heard as well as learned first hand. Most every question posed here has this exact type of dialog.

Sadly, folks such as yourself take it upon themselves to cause a train wreck every time a differing opinion comes up. You do so in a very self righteous manner with little regard to the BARBS or ATTACKS and HOSTILITY that you project towards others. Thread after thread, this is becoming more and more common.

Things get "hostile" when people like yourself bristle against an opinion and start being offended because you did not hear what you wanted. The sad part is that the exchange between stony and I was not HOSTILE and NOT directed at you. Yet YOU felt the need to throw in a "barb" (using your words) and start a fight.

Get a grip man.

 

[Beaner3]

You need to be kicked square in the testes, by someone who plays soccer, don't post on my thread anymore. You don't answer questions, you just stir the pot and I'm pretty sick of you. I hope you wear a giant T shirt at macna this year that says BeanAnimal on it. So we all will know who you are.

Any one else with an intelligent, non hostile, informative, free of condescention,.. opinion is more than welcome to post.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ahh now making personal threats are we. You sure you want to go down that road also? Get some perspective man.

 

[KyleO]

BeanAnimal..............cool it! Probably best not to reply to posts if you are going to be confrontational and condescending.

What is up with that?

I am sure you don't realize this but your replies definitely have a certain "tone" to them that are unmistakable. Personally, confrontation does not bother me, but there is definitely and time and a place, and this is neither.

Just my opinion............

 

[KyleO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10055141#post10055141 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3
Do you think I would need to "T" off the drain and put a ball valve on the fuge side to slow my flow down? My circ pump is rated for 700 GPH and I dont think I want all that flowing through my fuge.

Probably not a bad idea.......it all depends on the size of your plumbing coming in. 1", 1.5"???? The bigger the better............then a T and ball valves give you all kinds of control. Actually, now that I think about it, ball valves are a must on both the in and out lines for maintenance and such, but they also give you a lot of control on flow.

I also ended up adding gate valves on both my fuge and sump for even better control of flow.

As for the flow in the fuge..........keep in mind that the majority of the flow will be running over the top of the fuge and the bottom (with some LR for deflection) will be pretty calm (if you go with my original idea for your creation)

 

[motopsycho]

One thing I did that I have really noticed a difference with my pod population is: I put in 4 inches of sand in a 16x16 area of my fuge and have eggcrate hover an inch above the sand. I then have close to 40lbs of live rock rubble sitting on top of the eggcrate. The area between the eggcrate and sand is pitch dark. No matter what time of day I take a look at that area with a flashlight the pods are everywhere.