Plenum in a refugium?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10056752#post10056752 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KyleO
BeanAnimal..............cool it! Probably best not to reply to posts if you are going to be confrontational and condescending.

What is up with that?

I am sure you don't realize this but your replies definitely have a certain "tone" to them that are unmistakable. Personally, confrontation does not bother me, but there is definitely and time and a place, and this is neither.

Just my opinion............
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Now you also? No sir I will NOT "cool it" as long as nonsense like this keeps coming up. My initial post in this thread did NOT have a TONE. It was rather polite.

I have had it up to my eyeballs with folks like you and beaner who bark orders and attack people at your whim because you don't like their opinion. It is childish.

You tell ME to cool it, yet YOU had nothing in this exchange. You just stepped into it but will act as if you were justified. Sickening.

Lets be dead honest here:

Stoney posted in a rather forward and condesending manner regarding MY POLITE OPINION. MY post in respone was srtaight forward. It was DIRECTLY on topic and in DIRECT response to STONEY.

BEANER agreed with Stoney (as it appears you do) AND BOTH OF YOU FEEL JUSTIFIED ON CAUSING TROUBLE OVER THAT FACT. Beaner feels so strongly that he resorted to calling my post HOSTILE and in ADDITION resorted to a personal attack.

That was childish and very immature on beaners behalf, as is YOU ignoring the entire context of THIS thread and asking me to COOL IT. You entered this fray just to be able to take a shot too. Nice.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10054871#post10054871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3
Jesus take it easy, I just wanted to know if a plenum would work in a reduced flow 30 gallon refugium, I want to experiment with it , but if anyone has had any negative or positive effects from having a plenum,....in a refugium, I would like to know, without any bickering, stony coral, thank you for your input, That is what I am hoping to do with the plenum is reduce my nitrates to zippo.

But you think it would rob any caulerpa or chaeto of PO4, before they were able to process it, and keep the pH balanced during night lighting?

[ edit ]


I'll try and be diligent with my postings on this one and let everyone know how it works!
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B3:

Although I have run plenums for many years, I have to say I've never tried it in a fuge...

My thoughts:

It won't hurt anything as a plenum of that size should have very little effect on phosphate levels in your water. So, it won't "rob" your macro of anything...

I don't know, however, how much it will help, either. Simply due to your display tank being (I believe) a 180g and the plenum will only be in the 'fuge' portion of your sump...correct? I don't see a large enough ratio of plenumed area to total water volume that having a fuge plenum could possibly dentitrify your entire water volume...

As for the debate over whether or not a plenum "works" -

All I can offer is that I have run plenums successfully for a long time. I favor them over DSBs because the 2 times I tried DSBs I was not as happy - and more importantly, the livestock did not seem as "happy" - compared to my plenumed tanks. Furthermore, in both DSBs, upon teardown of the tanks, I was able to located pockets of anerobic "dead spots" in the sandbed, along with some HS2 formation... That has NEVER happened to me in a plenumed tank. The longest I have run a plenum is 11 straight years; in that time zero crashes. I did do partial water changes, usually 10% bi-monthly or so; I know of hobbyists who claim "no water changes with a plenum" but I don't like to take chances on something like that. I am also always amused by hobbyists who claim a plenum is "too high maintenance"; what "maintenance" are they referring to? I have basically never done anything to my plenumed tanks sandbeds once set up - other than a very occasional surface stirring of the uppermost sand, mainly just to loosen up any small areas of algae so it looks "prettier" to me :D never even added "critters" to the sandbed, like alot of DSB fans seem to have to do periodically...


If you are interested, the current issue of 'Marine & Reef' magazine has an interesting article on plenums. In it they visit the Waikikki Aquarium (which has several large plenumed reefs among its exhibits). I think you would find it very interesting reading... :)
 
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Cool!

I'm about 2" from my overflow teeth, it takes a long time to make RO/DI water when you only have a 24gpd unit. Going to plumb everything up tonight when I get home from work,

Motopsycho..... Thats a good Idea running a little platform like that for your live rock, I have some spare eggcrate and I think I'll give it a try if you don't mind.

Carlso, Thank you for your input, I went over to waikiki website and did a little reading, Your post was most informative, Thank you

KyleO I have a 1 1/2" drain, and I like the Idea of the gate valves as well, I'm also going to put two extra 1" bulkheads in the thing in case if I ever wanted to add any thing to the sump in the future, I appreciate your reply as well

Then we get to BeanAnimal, I think you need to go make yourself a zoloft and prozac smoothie, in a pitcher. And chase it with some oxycontin.

Thanks to everyone else who stayed on topic and didn't Hijack this little thread for confrontative purposes, I will post some pics as soon as I get it up and running! -Ben
 
Then we get to BeanAnimal, I think you need to go make yourself a zoloft and prozac smoothie, in a pitcher. And chase it with some oxycontin.
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 How will that help you grow up? I see that you still insist on perpetuating the personal attacks. Do you honestly feel that they are gaining you credibility with the majority of the kind and logical thinking readers here, or are you deluded by the fact that there are others that act and think like you do?

Most people tend to stay out of these silly arguements once they start but, rest assured, MOST would classify your comments and actions as unwarrented and childish.

Let me put it this way. Your like the anti-fur morons that throw food coloring on people walking into a furier. They feel justified in screaming obsenities and insults because they do not agree with SOMEBODY ELSES opinions. They feel justified in attacking personal property and threatening people. They do so in the bliss of their own ignorance. The part that THEY don't get is that 99.99% of us disagree with them but do so kindly by ignoring them. They are deluded into thinking their behavior is acceptable because masses of us don't march against them or beat the snot out of them. WE have better things to do unless WE are corned or confronted directly by said morons.

Ben, is that the way YOU think?

What exactly do you think the purpose of the Mr.Wilson post was? He did not want to fight with you, but certainly did put a fine point on the fact that there is a legitimate reason for my comments and plenty of room for us ALL to learn and debate the subject.

What did MY post say beaner? THIS IS MY OPINION THAT COULD BE 100% WRONG, BUT IT MAY BE WORTH LOOKING INTO.

You and several other people here are so obnoxious that you actually started a fight over it.

Thanks to everyone else who stayed on topic and didn't Hijack this little thread for confrontative purposes, I will post some pics as soon as I get it up and running!
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Shall we check back and SEE what my initial post in this thread was?

There do not appear to be very many successful plenums out there. I do not see any great advantage over the RDSB.

You may have already done the research, but if you have not... I would spent a LOT of time reading about plenums and the pros and cons.

I have come to the conclusion that there are not really any pros and a lot of cons. It would also appear that those who claim to run plenum based systems must do a LOT to keep them running (contrary to what they would have you believe).

I have formed this opinion from exhaustive reading here at RC and other reef related sites. I could be 100% wrong.


I ask you once again... WHERE IN THE WORLD IS THAT HOSTILE? WHERE IN THE WORLD IS THAT OFF TOPIC? WHERE IN THE WORLD IS THAT HIJACKING FOR CONFRONTATIVE PURPOSES.

You took exception to that and made a direct personal attack aimed at me.

Get some perspective beaner. While you at it please to to keep the context, as you said this is just a LITTLE thread. It will be a big favor to a lot more people than you imagine. You know that 99.99% that just shakes their heads in disbelief.

We don't even have to get into the personal threats... or did you forget that you did that too?
 
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Beaner3, I am looking very forward to seeing more pics..........

BeanAnimal, I apologize for saying "cool it!". I should have said something more along the lines of "please calm down". I was asking you not to be so confrontational by confronting you..........my bad! Looking back at this thread, Stony_corals was the first to "lash out" a little and if I was going to chime in at all, I should have encouraged you to remind everybody that you did, in fact, state very clearly that you were stating your opinion.

That would have been much more effective and would have left everybody a little speachless...............as opposed to firing back.

IMO, of course.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10063067#post10063067 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KyleO
Beaner3, I am looking very forward to seeing more pics..........

BeanAnimal, I apologize for saying "cool it!". I should have said something more along the lines of "please calm down". I was asking you not to be so confrontational by confronting you..........my bad! Looking back at this thread, Stony_corals was the first to "lash out" a little and if I was going to chime in at all, I should have encouraged you to remind everybody that you did, in fact, state very clearly that you were stating your opinion.

That would have been much more effective and would have left everybody a little speachless...............as opposed to firing back.

IMO, of course.
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Kyle THANK YOU for taking the moment to post that. Apology accepted. That simple fact has certainly elevated you far above the others that act like the OP in this thread.

My HONEST problem is that people like Beaner do this thread after thread. They do it ANYTIME they don't like what they hear or don't like the person who posted it. MOST OF US can have a debate or even a spirited debate and all learn something without acting like that.

I bit my tongue in response to Stony, as his comments were not really that personal and he WAS trying to make a point.

Beaners rhetoric sent me over the edge though.

Sadly, I did not even want a debate, I just said that it may be worth looking into as my opinion may not be correct at all.

Silence WOULD have avoided the argument. My only problem with that is the fact that this mentality is starting to become very problematic and I am tired of getting insulted by people who act like that. If the guy acts like that here... how in the world are his kids going to act? It is like a disease man.

I spend A LOT of time here trying to help people. People like beaner just take so much away from those of us who honestly try to help.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10063098#post10063098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I spend A LOT of time here trying to help people.
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At 9,098 posts............no argument from me. I have seen your posts in several other threads.

Thanks for all of your help and input (I have a long way to go in this hobby but love it!)

Kyle
 
Thanks again...

Maybe we CAN get back to the regularly scheduled programming. As I mentioned, I never installed a plenum in any of my systems. I had started to several years ago when I set up the 75. Threads similar to those that Mr.Wilson linked to changed my mind. Not only that but they also kept me from installing a DSB. I run a SSB and am now considering an RDSB in a bucket. I do not have a nitrate problem but want to ensure that I do not in the future. Phosphates are my problem ( I severely over feed) and I fear that the DSB or PLENUM would have just made matters worse.
 
I'm a strong proponent of plenums; however, my views of how and why they work may differ from others.

The classic Jaulbert plenum is sold as a method of introducing a small amount of aerobic activity to the bottom of an otherwise anoxic sand bed. It's also considered as a method of providing some passive water exchange throughout the sand bed.

While I believe these to be true attributes of a plenum, my evaluation of their merit lies in the provision of a viable niche in the ecosystem for benthic invertebrates such as fan worms & bristle worms, tunicates, sponges, zooplankton, and barnacles etc.

The standard Jaulbert plenum provides some space for benthic invertebrates, but a taller version located below the refugium, assures more sites for sedentary inverts to attach. Benthic invertebrates have limited space available to them within the display tank as they require darkness, limited flow, and lots of surface area to populate. Some of these critters will grow on the bottom of rocks within the display, but not to the same extent as in a true reef.

The added bonus of a raised refugium is the ability to grow macro algae in shallow areas where new growth will not choke out old growth. Lighting is also much more efficient as it doesn't have to penetrate deep water and shadowing is limited.

From my observations of larger (6" tall) plenums that are viewable (in sumps), there is no significant detritus build-up.

Over the years, I've had a few plenums below the sand bed in the display and sump, with no measurable benefit or problems. They are likely to be beneficial, as they provide a good home for polychaete worms that break down detritus, but I don't view them as a "must have" feature.

As with everything in this hobby, it's easier to measure failure than success.
 
I too apologize, there is a greater thing here to explore than each others temper limits, BeanAnimal, I apologize about the Zoloft crack, that was my sarcastic side response to a perceived attack, my bad,....but it was funny, you have to at least admit that :)

I am not going to be able to start anything with it tonight, I worked all day and I have some band practice to go to tonight. But I will take pics tomorrow while playing with it.

Another question though, How deep do you guys think I should make the actual plenum? I was planning on using 3/4" pvc that I have drilled holes all throughout the entire length of. Eggcrate on top of that, gravel tidy, fine layer of live sand, Walt Smith's fuge mud, and top it off with sand, then I was thinking of trying motopsycho's levitated live rock rubble shelf, and macros above that. Lasagna garden style. I forgot to add that the sand baffle I put in is 6 1/2" tall, so with 3/4" plenum, I would have a 5 3/4" sand bed. Do you think I should bump that plenum depth up a little more? or is 3/4" plenum in 30 gallons of water sufficient.

Could be really cool if it works the way I hope it does!
 
Alright then, an update,

After looking at this from every angle I have decided against going with the plenum, From what I've found there really would be no substantial benefit from having a plenum of such small size on a large volume of water. A plenum in the display tank would have been a better idea. I am still going to go with motopsycho's suggestion of a raised rock rack above the fuge DSB. That way water will be able to flow completely around all the rubble I'm going to stuff in there.

Thanks to all who replied, and apologies to BeanAnimal for the rocky start.

Plugging everything in as soon as my last batch of ro/di comes up in SG.
See ya!
 
Good thread. I used a plenum once, and like others, could not tell yeah or nay, possibly due to all the other filtration running at the same time.
I can say that even after the tank was emptied and was sitting for a few weeks with just a few inches of water and the sand, it didnt stink. I expected it to be totally anerobic since the idea is to create an anoxic zone. I just planned on chucking the sand, but it was clean and fresh underneath! I was amazed. No black spots or sludge.

I do like mr wilsons approach with the eggcrate in the fuge. I think you get a better handle on whats going on in there, plus its very cool to watch!

Beaner,
Just FYI, In the future, you may want to watch the name calling, and stick to a civil debate. I have seen people banned from RC for far less than you just got away with.
Please let us know how your fuge turns out.
Chris
 
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