Plumbing Drain for very large system Questions

Aqualund

New member
Okay so I am working with some friends to open a LFS. Instead of the stacked tanks in rows with plumbing down the middle, we would like to do some more innovative designs.

I would like to do little "islands" of frag tanks that are still connected to a main system and sump. Obviously we cant have plumbing all over the floor for people to trip over.

So I am asking anyone that is credible in the matter, official or anecdotal...would a drain system like the one in this picture work? I understand that all things equal, the water level will always level off. what I am more concerned about is with large volumes of water coming from the farm left tank, say 10k gph, will air pockets be a concern? will I have unforgivable issues with doing this U pattern of piping under a false floor in order to achieve the island effect and keep the plumbing out of the way?

Xf9yfOC.jpg
 
I think we need a more clear idea of which tanks are doing what. If the lowest tanks are the frag tanks, i can imagine those are pretty annoying to look into, being so low. If they are sumps, why do the pipes need to come up at all? They could be hidden in the false floor with straight pipes.

Is that top pipe high up somewhere, or are people going to hit it? Gravity fed or pumped? Which tank is pumping into the left tank?

Some idea of scale would also help, i think.
 
I was trying to keep it simple because honestly I'm having a hard time figuring out why what each tank does would matter.

The bottom tanks are live rock sumps with the top tanks being frag tanks.

But I guess you are right, the pipes would not need to come up at all...just straight all the way across. Can doing this have any negative effects that I'm not thinking of right off the bat?

Well if one of the pipes busts...or springs a leak...the entire sump system will drain and the live rock will be bare.

Yeah the top pipe will be plenty high and out of the way. All of the tanks will be fed by a 3" main pipe from the far right sump.

The far left tank will be about 6k gallons with each little island at about 500 gallons and the sump about 1000 gallons.

Thanks for your feedback Gorgok :)
 
Manifolding the lower sumps together and pumping from that with an external pump would seem smarter to me than pumping solely from the far right sump and hoping the cross drain (without gravity) will keep up with all the flow. There is probably some size/number of pipes that keeps up just fine, but i still would rather have the pump draw from all of them directly. You can obviously add valves to the bulkheads where they exit the rock sumps to isolate them if the need arises.
 
Yes, that is how the pump would see it. I don't know how well behaved the water level in all of the sumps would be, but i don't imagine there being a huge discrepancy.
 
Slightly OT, but worth posting while we're in the topic of plumbing systems:

I'd like to humbly suggest that you keep fish and verts or separate systems. Getting a fish disease from an invert is not fun, and if you have a major outbreak of ich/velvet/etc (which speaking from experience of years spent working in an LFS when I was younger will inevitably happen) your options for medication are reduced to nil if you need to worry about inverts. Whereas if you have all the fish together, if you have a nasty outbreak of a fast killer like brook or velvet you could potentially dose with chloroquine fast enough to save most of them.
 
Yes Gorgok, this will work great, thanks for the insight.

Grok, thanks for the advice. It was something I was already planning, but it does help to have that decision reinforced by someone who has done it. Thanks!
 
Warning:
Long post filled with a lot of ideas/advice.

FWIW, I'd also suggest running the sumps in parallel rather than in series. Lower chance for failure, and some sort of minor clog/messup is inevitable at some point, so I'd also suggest making the pipe connecting them as large as possible.

Also, it might be worth putting emergency drains on one or all of the sumps. Just an open bulkhead connected to a drain pipe near the top of the sumps, above where water would end up in the event of a worst case scenario.

For the sumps themselves, I'd suggest going cheapo given they don't have to look pretty and you're running a business (and thus minimize costs). Extremely large stock tanks are very inexpensive on a gallon per gallon basis, and much less fragile than glass in the event of inevitable kicks, dropped rocks, etc. Building a sump out of heavy duty pond liner in any sort container reinforced by a strong wood or metal frame also works well.

Also, I'd strongly suggest having very easy to use auto-WC and ATO systems. A large (multi hundred gallon) stock tank for SW mixing with a gravity drain unto the system is ideal. Alternatively, you can use an external pump on a closed loop as a mixing pump, with a 3 way ball valve to divert flow to the systems after mixing is complete. Having another 3 way ball valve to choose whether to move the mixed SW to a fish or an invert system is also a good idea, as it means you only need on mixing tank and mixing pump, again saving money. If you have an emergency drain on one or more sump, and a gravity drained mixing tank, doing a WC is as easy as opening the valve on the mixing tank. That saves a TON of man hours in the long term, and thus a ton of money, as having an employee spend a long period of time performing a WC is basically just paying them by the hour to watch water drain, and possibly diverting them away from customers in the process. A gravity drain rather than pumps for WC also makes it true "fire and forget", with no need to remember to turn off an expensive pump before it burns out.

You should also look into the price of bulk purchasing pre made salt mix vs the price of buying the chemicals needed to create it in bulk.

Also, consider how you want to do in-tank furniture and ask around. Using plastic or sintered glass "rocks" makes life easier if you ever need to dose copper or sterilize. White HPDE bottoms for some tanks are also worth considering. They look much better than bare glass and are easier to keep clean than sand.

For the tanks themselves, I'd suggest consulting with any reasonably local builders to see if you can work something out. You might be able to get all the tanks built to spec for far less (and potentially at higher quality) than a mass manufacturer. You can have the custom builder put "Tanks Made By" stickers/etching on everything, giving them free advertising and getting you a connection with a custom tank builder. That way, when a customer asks about a custom tank, you have a solid connection to refer them to, and having them subtly advertised throughout the store increases the odds of them asking about it.

Usually, aquariums are low gross margin (sale price minus wholesale cost) items, and they are extremely high overhead. They take up a lot of space, have a good chance of being broken before sale, and do nothing to draw customers or encourage any sort of minor impulse purchase, unlike high quality livestock or show displays.

It's also worth trying to work out similar deals for other initial fixed costs, like lighting. It might be worth talking to someone like buildmyled.com to see if they can give you extremely good pricing to light your tanks in exchange for free advertising and a retail distributor.

Those initial fixed costs are big, and minimizing them (without halfassing stuff the matters) means you can get into the black much sooner, and afford to spend more on the cool/shiny stuff like high quality finishings/paint, better display tanks, etc. Setting things up to minimize long term labor for basic maintenance also means that you can afford to pay your employees a bit more, and hopefully attract better ones in the process.

Just my two dollars worth of advice!
 
Unless you have a height difference between the water levels in the serial connected sumps, you will not be able to get much flow between them.
 
Back
Top