Plumbing question

[StephNewman]

I am planning on adding a Y or T connector at the top of my 1" return pipe which is in the middle back of the tank and send a pipe on each side with several loc lines along each side. BThe return pump is an iwaki 100rlt going up about 12 feet from the basement. Hopefully you understand what I am trying to do by that description. My question is what size pipe and loc lines should I use? Would I get better pressure through each loc lines by decreasing diameter? Is the 1" pipe a good size for the return or should I decrease that as well?

 

[Aquatron]

Hello,

I keep my manifold the same size as pump outlet then step down at each fixture. I believe a 1" pipe will max around 1300gph +- so the more outlets the slower the flow as you know
My manifold is 1 1/2" with four 1" inlets powered by a Dart Pump.

 

[uncleof6]

1 size over the pump outlet size, and keep the pipe same at that diameter the full length. If the outlet is 1" make the pipe size 1.25" or 1.5". This is basic plumbing engineering. Friction loss is a function of fluid velocity and pipe diameter. Friction loss goes down in larger pipe, because the velocity decreases. Splitting return lines hurts your flow rate, rather than improve it. Give it all the help you can by using large pipe. I would not bother with loc lines, I consider them a waste of resources, and create a restriction in the line that increases your losses.

Aquatron--your pump performance would improve with a single 1.5", or 2", line rather than splitting it up into 4 - 1" lines. The fittings alone, not including the smaller pipe size, increase your friction loss several times over a single 1.5" line. Again basic plumbing engineering.

 

[rocking]

+1 loc lines waste of time

 

[StephNewman]

I am wanting to do something like this but probably just on the back of the tank, not all the way around unless I can get enough flow to do around. Any suggestions on if it is possible with what I said above? What size piping is best to do this?
<a href="http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/?action=view&current=manifold.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/stephnewman1/manifold.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[uncleof6]

As a return system, it works. It is possible, and the best pipe size would be 1 - 2 sizes above the pump outlet size. This is the closed loop described by Anthony Calfo, on several occasions.

Generally, this type of return is used in a vain attempt to eliminate the need for power heads, and drilling multiple holes in the back of the tank is inconvenient, or undesirable. Water leaves the tank at the top, and returns to the top of the tank. Either in one place, or in this case multiple points. However, the water still returns to the top of the tank. To eliminate the power heads, there would need to be multi level outlets, (different depths) with the ability to alter the flow patterns on the fly, and would require a considerably larger pump. Even the more "common" definition of a closed loop does not really accomplish this.

However, you turn the pump on, and water will flow through this type of system, with less loss than two dead ended branches, so in that sense yes--it works. Is it worth the effort to build it? Well, IMO, no.

A single smallish power head, placed in the vicinity of a single return outlet, and angled slightly down into the tank, will accomplish more.

 

[westridge]

If your wanting GREAT FLOW...get rid of the concept of using an outside pump and pipes around the aquarium. I WAS going to do the same thing till I finally got talked out of it by numerous "experts" on here...otherwords people doing something different with GREAT results. That being said, use an Vortech pump, possible 40's and you will get results that you will find truly amazing. I fought what others told me for a long, then thought I would finally give it a try...and it is beyond amazing what these pumps can produce and the ability to program them easy for so many different water paterns. You will NEVER find someone that didn't like them...expensive...but worth every penny. Again, I was going to do exactly what you have drawn...it just doesn't work...others tried too...it doesn't work. Just an opinion...but what ever you do, try the Vortech!

 

[StephNewman]

uncleof6 - can you give me an example or pic even better of what your talking about for single pump and single return. I just can't see that getting all the dead spots which was my main concern. I wanted to be able to put a loc line or whatever piping i decided to use in the back of each corner so flow would get there to prevent dead spots in back corners but didn't think all the flow needed to go to the corners so also wanted to send a line on each side to other parts of tank with a loc line or piping. I still plan on using a powerhead or two to help control flow for the corals. I'm not trying to eliminate power heads but create flow in more directions.

 

[uncleof6]

uncleof6 - can you give me an example or pic even better of what your talking about for single pump and single return. I just can't see that getting all the dead spots which was my main concern. I wanted to be able to put a loc line or whatever piping i decided to use in the back of each corner so flow would get there to prevent dead spots in back corners but didn't think all the flow needed to go to the corners so also wanted to send a line on each side to other parts of tank with a loc line or piping. I still plan on using a powerhead or two to help control flow for the corals. I'm not trying to eliminate power heads but create flow in more directions.

I did not say it would get all the dead spots, but neither will your idea of the "closed loop" be an improvement, unless you have a very large powerful pump. If such things accomplished anything, power heads would be unheard of. What I am saying is it is a waste of time to pursue this type of return scheme.

The dead spots are not going to be near the surface of the water, nor will they be in the "free water" areas. They will be in the back corners, and behind and through your rock work, at the lower areas of your tank. Multiple outlets at the surface are not going to do a thing--lock line or not, other than reduce the amount of water through the return system.

The largest simple thing you can do to eliminate dead spots, is not putting your rock work against the back of the tank. Just one reason, marine tanks should be wide and "shorter", rather than tall and skinny.

 

[Aquatron]

Mr Newman, I am sure you know by now with over a 1000 post that any question posted is open for interpretation. You are doing it right with research and question's and in doing so will see that their is 1000 way's of building a successful reef tank. In the end it will be up to you to choose the way your's will be done since each way will have pros and cons

Best of Luck!!!

 

[uncleof6]

I quite agree. Carrying it further, that would mean that 999 more complicated setups would be a waste of time would it not?

 

[StephNewman]

Aquatron- First off it is Mrs. Newman Thank you for giving me insight and helping me realize that really there is possibly more than one good way of doing things.

uncleof6- I was not trying to disagree with what you were saying but wanted to get an example on what I should use for my system. I do have the largest Iwaki pump that is made as mentioned but it will be pumping about 12 feet up, so not sure how much flow will be left once in place. My thought process was that I could have a pipe facing downward (loc line or other) in each back corner to prevent dead spots in the corners of the tank. Is this likely to help? I built a foam/rock wall in the tank so there will not be alot of rocks on the ground except a few in middle of tank so it shouldn't be too hard to have flow move between the rock work with the two powerheads I plan on having in there. It is a 120 so it is a wide tank. 4 feet, by 24 feet by 24 feet. Thank you for your opinion and it will be taken into consideration as I move forward with the build.