Po4 Issues..

C

CoralNutter

New member
Okay guys I have questions for you guys. Since finding out that my test kit was faulty after getting a hanna ulr phosphorus checker i have been trying to get my po4 under control. My po4 when i started lowering it was .22 and its been about 3 weeks now and i am still having trouble keeping the levels under 0.1ppm. I am assuming that there is a large amount of p04 leaching from the rocks because i was using that kit for the past 7 months. My po4 overnight will go from .02 to .08 and 3 weeks ago it would go back up to .15 i belive so it is improving. My question is do you guys think this is normal for po4 leaching? I have used so much GFO and has been quite expensive and for the last week i have been using brightwell phosphate-E because of the price. Some of my older sps colonies that were acustom to the higher po4 are not liking the fluctuations and have STN'd and i loat my Strawberry shortcake. How long should i expext it to keep leaching for or do you think my tank is overstocked? I have 80g of water volume and i have a Kole tang, 5 Small half inch chroms , Flame angel, Maroon clown, Leopard Wrasse and a Blue spotted watchman goby. I was dosing Vinegar as a carbon source before i switched to Aquaforest products and my nitrate has never gone above 0.1. What do you guys think i should do some of my colonies look better than ever but the STN has got me pulling my hear out alkalinity and all other params are rock solid...
 
Why are you trying to lower the Phosphates to start with? My corals have been doing great this past year and the Phosphate are sliding between .64 and .85.

If you have good biological filtration and a good refugium, then Phosphates aren't problematic. They are nutrients in your water to feed your corals. The more the better. It's having the proper filtration so that the Phosphates are feeding your corals and not nuisance algae.

Dave B
 
o2manyfish said:
Why are you trying to lower the Phosphates to start with? My corals have been doing great this past year and the Phosphate are sliding between .64 and .85.

If you have good biological filtration and a good refugium, then Phosphates aren't problematic. They are nutrients in your water to feed your corals. The more the better. It's having the proper filtration so that the Phosphates are feeding your corals and not nuisance algae.

Dave B
Click to expand...
Well my sps have barely been growing and the consumption of alkalinity slowed down almost 50%. I dont have any nuisance algae really except some small patches of red turf. I also dont have a refugium because my sump just doesnt have the room and i am not planning to put money into plumbing one in to this system as i am saving money for an upgrade. Po4 was the only thing i could attribute the slow growth of my sps as all my other params are in line. Also since i have reduced it a bit i did notice some better coloration in the corals that weren't negatively impacted. I really just want the stripping to stop its so random which one it hits how fast it will strip or if it will even continue.

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Ok my suggestion at this point is . STOP messing with anything. Literally stop trying to reduce phosphates or add phosphates to stop the stn. Just walk away from your tank. Stn started already. But there isn't a single thing you can do to stop it immediately except may be breaking down your colonies. Acros are like ocean liners, if they get stressed today, in 10 days you will see the signs and the signs will progress for another week or so even if the parameters already stabilized. Now when the stuff stabilizes and you want to lower the phosphates and you have 0 nitrates in your system, try dosing tiny amounts of KNO3, may be less than 1ppm per day this helps bring the po4 down. But for now sit back and relax , I know it's hard to do but you'd be doing more harm than good by doing anything except may be fragging the stning colonies.


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I would stop AF and do a large water change.
I've had a terrible experience after started dosing AF. PO4 and NO3 climbed and I lost tens sps.
Still don't know why, but probably I should have started with half dose.
 
macdaddynick1 said:
Ok my suggestion at this point is . STOP messing with anything. Literally stop trying to reduce phosphates or add phosphates to stop the stn. Just walk away from your tank. Stn started already. But there isn't a single thing you can do to stop it immediately except may be breaking down your colonies. Acros are like ocean liners, if they get stressed today, in 10 days you will see the signs and the signs will progress for another week or so even if the parameters already stabilized. Now when the stuff stabilizes and you want to lower the phosphates and you have 0 nitrates in your system, try dosing tiny amounts of KNO3, may be less than 1ppm per day this helps bring the po4 down. But for now sit back and relax , I know it's hard to do but you'd be doing more harm than good by doing anything except may be fragging the stning colonies.


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Click to expand...
What about GFO? Do you think i should stop replacing that as well? Im scared its going to go right back to where it was previously and then all of this was for nothing. I know that i have changed too much now and the damage has been done but if i let the po4 just go back to where it was i am back where i started with no growth.

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Alfrareef said:
I would stop AF and do a large water change.
I've had a terrible experience after started dosing AF. PO4 and NO3 climbed and I lost tens sps.
Still don't know why, but probably I should have started with half dose.
Click to expand...
What products were you dosing i am only 3 days in and i did notice my nitrates ross to 1ppm. My phosphate issues started long before thr AF though i got my hanna checker over 3 weeks ago when i noticed the problem.

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CoralNutter said:
What products were you dosing i am only 3 days in and i did notice my nitrates ross to 1ppm. My phosphate issues started long before thr AF though i got my hanna checker over 3 weeks ago when i noticed the problem.

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Click to expand...



I've started with E+B, a week after introduced V+A and 2 weeks after the NP Pro+Pro Bio S. The values start to go up and I assume that the bacterial increase would take care of it... I was wrong!
 
This is a complex issue with a simple solution, but it takes time and patience. You are going to have to get this taken care of for the SPS to thrive, so I would get it over with. There is more going on here about why your SPS are suffering than I will post since I will get laughed off of the board, so I will stay with the PO4 issue.

There is more going on than just phosphates in your water. Probably every surface of aragonite in your tank is bound with phosphate. This is oversimplified, but think of the aragonite bind as being in equilibrium with your tank water.

When you change water, the water column P level lowers. Quickly, rock and sand unbind P to raise the water column again, but slightly lower than before to an equilibrium just below where you were. You have to keep on changing water or using GFO until the bound phosphate in the rock has been removed from the tank through the water column. There can be a lot.

I recommend that you change out your sand like 20-25% a month until you get it all. If you do too much too fast, you will have other issues - the new sand needs time to establish anoxic zones and microfauna. Next, change your water and keep changing your GFO. This can take a long time. Can you add a second skimmer, even if it is a HOB? Any extra export of current detritus would be good. Run activated carbon 24x7 for a while - just get used to it and change it every week. The carbon will bind some organics that you can export and not add to this vicious cycle. You can cut the feedings back a bit too - focus on quality dry non-messy food first like NLS pellets or the like. If you have to feed frozen food, rise it really good and get all of the juice off.

Lastly, if you lower the water column P level by changing water, make sure that you put in clean GFO. The GFO will also release P back into the water column if the water column gets below the equilibrium. It stinks to do a 50% water change and cut your water column P in half only to have the GFO fill the water column back up instead of the aragonite.

5G bucket of GFO is way cheaper than buying little containers.

I don't know how you set your tank up, but the selection of live rock is very important. Real live rock from a nutrient-poor reef is typically free of phosphate and ready to participate pretty quickly. Dry/dead rock is typically bound with all kinds of organics and phosphate that can take a long time to deal with. Just doing a quick acid dip does remove some phosphate from the outer layer, but does not get it all. After you factor in a year or more of dealing with removing phosphate from dry rock, live rock was a LOT cheaper.
 
jda said:
This is a complex issue with a simple solution, but it takes time and patience. You are going to have to get this taken care of for the SPS to thrive, so I would get it over with. There is more going on here about why your SPS are suffering than I will post since I will get laughed off of the board, so I will stay with the PO4 issue.

There is more going on than just phosphates in your water. Probably every surface of aragonite in your tank is bound with phosphate. This is oversimplified, but think of the aragonite bind as being in equilibrium with your tank water.

When you change water, the water column P level lowers. Quickly, rock and sand unbind P to raise the water column again, but slightly lower than before to an equilibrium just below where you were. You have to keep on changing water or using GFO until the bound phosphate in the rock has been removed from the tank through the water column. There can be a lot.

I recommend that you change out your sand like 20-25% a month until you get it all. If you do too much too fast, you will have other issues - the new sand needs time to establish anoxic zones and microfauna. Next, change your water and keep changing your GFO. This can take a long time. Can you add a second skimmer, even if it is a HOB? Any extra export of current detritus would be good. Run activated carbon 24x7 for a while - just get used to it and change it every week. The carbon will bind some organics that you can export and not add to this vicious cycle. You can cut the feedings back a bit too - focus on quality dry non-messy food first like NLS pellets or the like. If you have to feed frozen food, rise it really good and get all of the juice off.

Lastly, if you lower the water column P level by changing water, make sure that you put in clean GFO. The GFO will also release P back into the water column if the water column gets below the equilibrium. It stinks to do a 50% water change and cut your water column P in half only to have the GFO fill the water column back up instead of the aragonite.

5G bucket of GFO is way cheaper than buying little containers.

I don't know how you set your tank up, but the selection of live rock is very important. Real live rock from a nutrient-poor reef is typically free of phosphate and ready to participate pretty quickly. Dry/dead rock is typically bound with all kinds of organics and phosphate that can take a long time to deal with. Just doing a quick acid dip does remove some phosphate from the outer layer, but does not get it all. After you factor in a year or more of dealing with removing phosphate from dry rock, live rock was a LOT cheaper.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. If there is something you think i should know you can PM me if it might help i am willing to listen. As for changing the sand my tank is currently bare bottom so that wont be an issue. The tank was set up with bali live rock from an LFS. The reason i believe that it may have had a sufficient amount of po4 bound before i even got it is that that LFS sells there rock as "cured" but there system is basically just a bunch of tanks that are filled with rocks connected to there system and it didn't look to well maintained (they are more of a FW specialist). Needless to say i have found a SW Specialty Reef shop. I really do think that you have got my situation pinned down though, like you said every time i lower the po4 it releases a slightly less amount back into the water. I think I am over the hump now mostly it seems that my po4 is staying around .08 which is a lot better and shouldn't be to long before its at my goal below .05. I have noticed that some of the corals are looking much better. Also thanks for the tip about changing the GFO after water changes I didn't think about that could very well have released some back in that way lol.:rolleyes:
 
Oh and also so far I have gone through 2kg's of generic HCGFO and 1L of Rowa halfway through my second 1L container of Rowa now. Also dosed about 20ML total of Brightwell Phosphate-E(probobly lanthanum chloride). I stopped with the brightwell because I think that is the most harsh on my corals right now so sucking up the cost of GFO.. My question being is this a normal amount roughly to go through?
 
Heads up, if your local fish store sold you cured 'Bali' Rock - You might want to change LFS -- Bali doesn't export rock.

Dave B
 
You're doing too much stuff, trying to do too much stuff, and planning to change too much stuff at the same time.

The best advice you can get was already given, and you chose to ignore it -- Stop doing anything. Coral takes years, not weeks. Say this line over, and over, and over again until it sinks in: "Only bad things happen quickly"
 
Rakie said:
You're doing too much stuff, trying to do too much stuff, and planning to change too much stuff at the same time.

The best advice you can get was already given, and you chose to ignore it -- Stop doing anything. Coral takes years, not weeks. Say this line over, and over, and over again until it sinks in: "Only bad things happen quickly"
Click to expand...

I know im trying my best not to change anything except the po4 atm.
 
CoralNutter said:
I know im trying my best not to change anything except the po4 atm.
Click to expand...



CoralNutter,

Don't fell pushed by all this comments. We all are trying to help you using the real experience.
I myself have gone thru that over the years in the hobby and I must say that I still make mistakes.
When you think that you're on driver seat, the aquarium puts you back on your place.
Not everyone places pics when things are going wrong... and most of the people had a tank crash, even if they don't admite it.
The important thing is to get a solid knowledge and understand that every reef it's different and one should learn to read it.
Have a happy reefing!
 
Alfrareef said:
CoralNutter,

Don't fell pushed by all this comments. We all are trying to help you using the real experience.
I myself have gone thru that over the years in the hobby and I must say that I still make mistakes.
When you think that you're on driver seat, the aquarium puts you back on your place.
Not everyone places pics when things are going wrong... and most of the people had a tank crash, even if they don't admite it.
The important thing is to get a solid knowledge and understand that every reef it's different and one should learn to read it.
Have a happy reefing!
Click to expand...
This is true --

Personally, I don't think you need to worry about the po4 either.

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Rakie said:
This is true --

Personally, I don't think you need to worry about the po4 either.

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Click to expand...
Thanks guy i apreciate all the help! The consensus from everyone seems to be forget about the po4.

So here is my next question then.

If i am going to leave po4 the way it is at around .1 most people here would say GFO would become depleted in a few days. For the people running at this level do you guys bother with GFO?
Rakie said:
This is true --

Personally, I don't think you need to worry about the po4 either.

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


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o2manyfish said:
Why are you trying to lower the Phosphates to start with? My corals have been doing great this past year and the Phosphate are sliding between .64 and .85.

If you have good biological filtration and a good refugium, then Phosphates aren't problematic. They are nutrients in your water to feed your corals. The more the better. It's having the proper filtration so that the Phosphates are feeding your corals and not nuisance algae.

Dave B
Click to expand...

This. I haven't even measured the PO4 in my new tank. And corals are doing great. Concentrate on the biological filtration. I also added a fuge with chaeto recently. I'm glad to see someone like Dave suggesting two things I've incorporated into my new tank. Check out his tank thread or YT channel. :)

Also how do you know the Hanna isn't at fault? I stopped using my Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter yeats ago due to bad reagent batches. Also if any visible particles get into the sample being tested it throw's the reading off.

No one should feel they cannot input towards the thread for fear of being laughed at etc. We all have different experiences and knowledge and it's upto the OP to read everyone's post and decide what is best for them/whose advice they should go with. Sharing info is how this hobby improves. Never feel you have to take things to PM. :)
 
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