Possible bad batch of Cupramine?

[SteelMastiff]

I am wondering if there is a bad batch of Cupramine out there. I just purchased a new bottle, and two attempts at using it now have both yielded horrific results.

I have 3 quarantine tanks running at the moment, all cycled, and all fish were thriving, and had all been through two treatments of Prazi Pro, and one of the tanks has been through one round of Cupramine.

I didn't have enough Cupramine to even start treatment of the remaining tanks, hence why I had to purchase a new bottle, and why I'm now starting to think that perhaps this new bottle has issues.

Tank 1. Contained a Threadfin, Heniochus, and Raccoon Butterfly.

Tank 2. Contains a Flame, Red Stripe, and Swallowtail Angel.

Saturday night just before lights out I dosed both tanks with 1/2 the recommended starting dosage of Cupramine, turned out the lights and went to bed. After awaking Sunday morning I headed down to the fish room only to discover the Threadfin dead, and the other Butterfly's appeared to be in a stoned state of mind, staring into space, and seemingly disoriented.

I immediately removed the Threadfin from the tank and turned my attention to Tank 2. that houses the Angels. All three of the Angels appeared to be in a similar state; staring off into space, mouths open, heavier than normal breathing. I was just sickened with what I was seeing...

Fortunately for me having a fairly large system I always have 50-100 gallons of mixed water on hand that I keep at 76 degrees. I quickly tested the PH and began full water changes on both tanks.

As of this morning the remaining fish are alive, but the Swallowtail isn't looking well at all, and all of them are remaining in a stationary position, and have shown no interest in eating or swimming around.

I am just besides myself with this whole deal, and the only conclusion I can come to is perhaps I dosed my tank with a bad batch of Cupramine. Has anyone else had a similar experience recently while using Cupramine?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Any chance you used an ammonia neutralizer; like Prime, Ammo-Lock? That's a common, and deadly mistake. Here's some good stuff on Cupramine, the FAQ cover a lot of possible pitfalls:http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

I'd call SeaChem tech support, they make Cupramine and are nice folks. 1-888-seachem.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Any chance you used an ammonia neutralizer; like Prime, Ammo-Lock? That's a common, and deadly mistake. Here's some good stuff on Cupramine, the FAQ cover a lot of possible pitfalls:http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

I'd call SeaChem tech support, they make Cupramine and are nice folks. 1-888-seachem.

No prime or anything like it has been in any of my quarantine tanks. I used Paraquard when first receiving the fish, and then they went through the Prazi Pro. It has been three weeks since the last round of Prazi, and with multiple water changes and running carbon. I am 100% certain it has to be a direct result of the Cupramine. I have never had any issues using Cupramine in the past, all of my fish in my DT have gone through quarantine using Cupramine.

I scooped out a glass of water from both of these tanks prior to the emergency water changes so I could test the parameters, and both tanks checked out good. It just makes me sick...

 

[Deinonych]

Sorry for your loss. If you decide to make another go at Cupramine treatment (presumably with a new bottle), you might consider ramping up the dosage slowly over 4-5 days. IME the instructions on the bottle are too aggressive and can cause fish to react negatively to it. I now ramp up slowly over 5 days and keep the level at 0.40mg/l instead of 0.5mg/l. This is still above the therapeutic dose of 0.35mg/l and most fish seem to tolerate it better.

I've also started using chloroquine phosphate instead of copper for treatment. So far, it seems to be just as effective as copper without the side effects. It's a bit more difficult to source than Cupramine, but it's an option.

 

[SteelMastiff]

Sorry for your loss. If you decide to make another go at Cupramine treatment (presumably with a new bottle), you might consider ramping up the dosage slowly over 4-5 days. IME the instructions on the bottle are too aggressive and can cause fish to react negatively to it. I now ramp up slowly over 5 days and keep the level at 0.40mg/l instead of 0.5mg/l. This is still above the therapeutic dose of 0.35mg/l and most fish seem to tolerate it better.

I've also started using chloroquine phosphate instead of copper for treatment. So far, it seems to be just as effective as copper without the side effects. It's a bit more difficult to source than Cupramine, but it's an option.

I always ramp it up slowly also. I started with half of the recommended dosage for the first 48 hrs as always. I put 2ml. In the 40 gallon, and 1ml. Into the 25 gallon quarantine tanks. That is half the recommended dose for the first 48 hrs per Seachem instructions. This was measured using a medicine dropper.

I will post the lot# off the bottle if there is one, after I get home from work tonight. I also plan on contacting Seachem with regards to this situation.

 

[SteelMastiff]

The wife just got home from work and checked on the fish, and sadly the Swallowtail, and the Redstripe are both dead. The Flame is wedged in a piece of PVC and she couldn't get a good look at it, but she thinks it's still alive.

I have had these Angels in quarantine since June 1st, and the butterfly's since July 7th.

The really sad part is I was considering not running this group through my normal copper regiment, but thought better safe than sorry. Man this sucks!

 

[SDguy]

So very sorry for your losses. Did you by chance measure the dose incorrectly? How much exactly did you dosr and into what water volumes? It really does sound just like copper overdose (ugh I know from experience ).

 

[SaltWaterAdam]

If you check LiveAquaria it says explicitly about flames that they do not tolerate levels of copper above 0.15ppm

From LiveAquaria: The Flame Angel is very sensitive to elevated levels of copper, and should never be exposed to levels near or above 0.15 ppm.

I'd recommend TTM for angels and anything sensitive to copper.

 

[SteelMastiff]

So very sorry for your losses. Did you by chance measure the dose incorrectly? How much exactly did you dosr and into what water volumes? It really does sound just like copper overdose (ugh I know from experience ).

Peter, I dosed the tanks as follows.

Tank 1. 40 gallons: dosed 2ml. This is the tank that contained the 3 Butterflyfish.
Tank 2. 25 gallons: dosed 1ml. This tank contained the 2 Dwarf Angels, and a Swallowtail Angel.

I measured the dosage with a medicine dropper that displays 1ml. increments. This is half the dosage that Seachem recommends for the first 48 hours, the same dosage I have always started off with, and a level I have never experienced any issues with.

For those reading this take it for what you will, all I can tell you is Saturday night I had 6 fat healthy fish, and 10hrs later I had 5 fish in separate tanks that appeared to be in an absolute trance and 1 dead; and the only thing that had changed was a very light dose of Cupramine.

I am not some adolescent that has never dosed copper, nor do I have an axe to grind with Seachem. I just want others to be aware that I've had an awful experience, and the only variable was the Cupramine; it's that simple.

I am not certain if Seachem uses lot/batch numbers, but there is a number on the bottom of the bottle, and it reads the following. (61292). Mine happens to be 100ml. I would exercise extreme caution if you happen to have a numbers matching bottle in your possession, if indeed this is a lot/batch number, and not just an item number.

I intend to contact Seachem regarding this issue; I also have two different copper test kits, Seachem and Salifert, and plan on setting up a 10 gallon test tank just so I can test the copper level at different dosages.

 

[SDguy]

I disnt mean to imply you didn't know what you were doing... just asking some basic questions hoping you may have an ah ha moment


I'd contact seachem. Also do some simple tests... add fixed amounts of cupramine to exact volumes of water, and test with both kits.

 

[Deinonych]

Please let us know what Seachem says. I have always received prompt, professional responses from them.

Really sorry to hear about your losses. I know first hand how hard it can be to lose fish that you have spent time caring for. You just have to find a way to move on and learn from the experience somehow.

 

[SteelMastiff]

I disnt mean to imply you didn't know what you were doing... just asking some basic questions hoping you may have an ah ha moment


I'd contact seachem. Also do some simple tests... add fixed amounts of cupramine to exact volumes of water, and test with both kits.

I honestly didn't take anything you said in a negative way at all, I welcome, and certainly appreciate your input on the matter. I admire what you've done in this hobby, your tank, and its inhabitants are incredible to say the least"¦

Please let us know what Seachem says. I have always received prompt, professional responses from them.

Really sorry to hear about your losses. I know first hand how hard it can be to lose fish that you have spent time caring for. You just have to find a way to move on and learn from the experience somehow.

I appreciate the kind words, and this little bump in the road won't deter me in the least. I'm just extremely frustrated with the whole deal, and the way it went down. I have never had any issues with any of the Seachem products I've used, and have always had nothing but positive results with their products.

I normally would've waited until I spoke with a rep from a company before getting on a message board and flapping my gums about an issue I had, but in this case, I just wanted to inform others as soon as possible about a potential issue. And if I wasn't so certain of the cause, I wouldn't have opened my pie hole about it at all"¦

There are people on here that invest in some really expensive livestock, and I would just hate to see someone suffer the immediate and disastrous results that I have just witnessed without at least letting others know of a potential problem.

 

[Rea17]

I'm so sorry for your losses, but I am very glad you are sharing. I use cupramine on almost every incoming fish, and this is something that will be in the back of my mind. I have a brand new 100ml bottle too, I will check for a lot number...

Edit: My mistake - mine is 250ml. The number is 59458, looks like a sku number to me. Please let us know what Seachem says.

 

[dlondono]

This was not a bad batch of bad cupramine.

I had this happen to me as well. I was using medical droppers to dose in ML's thinking they were accurate but they are not with deadly medications.

You must use the cap on the cupramine bottle as the dropper and count each drop and follow directions.

You state that you used half the dosage but were already using a different product in the tank. If your fish in fact died with only half the dosage then the QT tanks, filters, media and anything else in contact with the water had residue of the other chemical you used and it created a deadly interaction.

Cupramine should not be used as preventive, only to cure actual sick fish.

Cupramine needs to be counted drop by drop not used with droppers or syringes.

When using cupramine everything must be rinse and filter sponges replaced all together to prevent deadly reactions.

After I stopped using droppers and syringes to do a perfect 2ml dose I stopped losing fish during ich QT.

Count each drop and prevent deadly chemical reactions.

 

[SteelMastiff]

This was not a bad batch of bad cupramine.

I had this happen to me as well. I was using medical droppers to dose in ML's thinking they were accurate but they are not with deadly medications.

You must use the cap on the cupramine bottle as the dropper and count each drop and follow directions.

You state that you used half the dosage but were already using a different product in the tank. If your fish in fact died with only half the dosage then the QT tanks, filters, media and anything else in contact with the water had residue of the other chemical you used and it created a deadly interaction.

Cupramine should not be used as preventive, only to cure actual sick fish.

Cupramine needs to be counted drop by drop not used with droppers or syringes.

When using cupramine everything must be rinse and filter sponges replaced all together to prevent deadly reactions.

After I stopped using droppers and syringes to do a perfect 2ml dose I stopped losing fish during ich QT.

Count each drop and prevent deadly chemical reactions.

I really hate to tell you this but you're dead wrong in your assumption, and had you read all of my posts you would've realized this...

First off, it had been more than three weeks since the last round of Prazi Pro. And during those three weeks I was running carbon and had performed multiple water changes in each of these tanks. And just prior to starting the Cupramine treatments I removed the carbon and replaced the filter pads in both of these tanks when I did a 50% water change. I always do this routine prior to any change in treatment.

Secondly, it was a 1/4 Cupramine dose, not a 1/2 dose like you say.

Thirdly, funny you mention the medicine dropper, my wife and I plugged the end of it last night so we could test if it was accurate. Guess what, 16 drops of Cupramine = exactly 1ml on my medical dropper; imagine that!

I will get to the bottom of this one way or another, but one shouldn't always assume it was user error. And if I honestly felt it was, then I'd own it, and wouldn't have come on here warning of a potential issue...

 

[Rea17]

Not to mention Cupramine and Prazipro can technically be used in conjunction.

 

[Deinonych]

It also makes no sense that drops would be more accurate than using a metered dose from a dropper.

 

[accordsirh22]

If you check LiveAquaria it says explicitly about flames that they do not tolerate levels of copper above 0.15ppm

From LiveAquaria: The Flame Angel is very sensitive to elevated levels of copper, and should never be exposed to levels near or above 0.15 ppm.

I'd recommend TTM for angels and anything sensitive to copper.

thats bull. we keep flames in our system at work with copper at the .5 level and they have all done fine. as have coral beautys, half blacks, pygmy, flameback pygmy, and other dwarfs.

 

[dlondono]

I really hate to tell you this but you're dead wrong in your assumption, and had you read all of my posts you would've realized this...

First off, it had been more than three weeks since the last round of Prazi Pro. And during those three weeks I was running carbon and had performed multiple water changes in each of these tanks. And just prior to starting the Cupramine treatments I removed the carbon and replaced the filter pads in both of these tanks when I did a 50% water change. I always do this routine prior to any change in treatment.

Secondly, it was a 1/4 Cupramine dose, not a 1/2 dose like you say.

Thirdly, funny you mention the medicine dropper, my wife and I plugged the end of it last night so we could test if it was accurate. Guess what, 16 drops of Cupramine = exactly 1ml on my medical dropper; imagine that!

I will get to the bottom of this one way or another, but one shouldn't always assume it was user error. And if I honestly felt it was, then I'd own it, and wouldn't have come on here warning of a potential issue...

Whatever man
My fish are alive, yours are dead and the $$$ u lost well.....thats what ccards are for right

Keep blaming cupramine
Tens of thousands of aquarium keepers around the world, bad batch and all boards would be flooded with posts

U like poisoned ur fish but knock yourself out

 

[SDguy]

Have you done any concentration tests with your test kit and dropper?