Possible ICH Cure!!

[extra3d]

Hi guys... As tittle says! POSIBBLE ICH CURE! it may still be in my tank, but i have it undercontrol! FOR ME ICH=STRESS!!!! find the stress cause and fix it!
My stressed fish was a new fish to the tank..
heres what i did:

Please follow my advice, IT WORKED FOR ME, it could work for you! at least try it..
1) Buy Strees Coat, Dose as the bottle says!!
2) ONLY turn on the Actinic lights!! for 3 to 4 days.. i went 5!
3)Check all you parameters, the most important one for me is Ammonia and ALK!! low alk= PH swings= STRESS!!! if you have low alk, up it slowly.
4)Do not do any water changes for now!
5)Do not transfer to QT for now! MORE stress for them!
6)Buy good food!! and ad garlic and selcon! Feed, feed, feed!!! Pump there inmune system!!

Mike

 

[ja4207]

I agree with everything but would like to add a medication I have fell in love with Dr. G's Anti Bacterial formula. I tried Metro and Focus a number of times over the years only to see the ich return. Since using Dr. G's it took one week and have yet to see it return! I now use it on all new fish and all of my tanks have been ich free for a year atleast.

 

[hvacman250]

Hi guys... As tittle says! POSIBBLE ICH CURE! it may still be in my tank, but i have it undercontrol!

CURE does NOT equal CONTROL.

If you had a disease, would you want to CONTROL it or CURE it? I'll leave it at that.

 

[extra3d]

CURE does NOT equal CONTROL.

If you had a disease, would you want to CONTROL it or CURE it? I'll leave it at that.

I understand! but ive seen a couple of reefers here say: Ive Qt for 8 weeks, Fallow for 8 weeks, i put my fish back and next day my fish have ich! im not in for that.......! and my fish eat like pigs and they look grrrreat!!

Mike

 

[hvacman250]

I understand! but ive seen a couple of reefers here say: Ive Qt for 8 weeks, Fallow for 8 weeks, i put my fish back and next day my fish have ich! im not in for that.......! and my fish eat like pigs and they look grrrreat!!

Mike

So did mine. I lived with Ich for 7 months. I added garlic to their food, kept stress to a minimum, etc, etc, etc.

Then it bites you in your backside. Living with Ich is a ticking time bomb. Fish WILL die. Its only a matter of time. Ive been there, done that.

If a tank is left fallow for 9 weeks, and copper is dosed in a QT for 4 weeks between 0.35 and 0.50 ppm, the chances of you getting Ich again are about the same as you winning the lottery. Sure its possible, but highly unlikely. You have to ask yourself when someone gets it again after the KNOWN protocol the question "Did they REALLY do it right"?

 

[snorvich]

So did mine. I lived with Ich for 7 months. I added garlic to their food, kept stress to a minimum, etc, etc, etc.

Then it bites you in your backside. Living with Ich is a ticking time bomb. Fish WILL die. Its only a matter of time. Ive been there, done that.

If a tank is left fallow for 9 weeks, and copper is dosed in a QT for 4 weeks between 0.35 and 0.50 ppm, the chances of you getting Ich again are about the same as you winning the lottery. Sure its possible, but highly unlikely. You have to ask yourself when someone gets it again after the KNOWN protocol the question "Did they REALLY do it right"?

I agree.

 

[MrTuskfish]

So did mine. I lived with Ich for 7 months. I added garlic to their food, kept stress to a minimum, etc, etc, etc.

Then it bites you in your backside. Living with Ich is a ticking time bomb. Fish WILL die. Its only a matter of time. Ive been there, done that.

If a tank is left fallow for 9 weeks, and copper is dosed in a QT for 4 weeks between 0.35 and 0.50 ppm, the chances of you getting Ich again are about the same as you winning the lottery. Sure its possible, but highly unlikely. You have to ask yourself when someone gets it again after the KNOWN protocol the question "Did they REALLY do it right"?

Well put. Kill ich or it comes back, only question is when.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I understand! but ive seen a couple of reefers here say: Ive Qt for 8 weeks, Fallow for 8 weeks, i put my fish back and next day my fish have ich! im not in for that.......! and my fish eat like pigs and they look grrrreat!!

Mike

Hi mike, just curious. how long since you last saw ich in your tank?

 

[seahorsedreams]

There is record of tomonts releasing theronts 72 days after leaving the fish.... 72 freaking days! Some fish will develop an immunity and have a low grade case going on that you can't see. WHEN a stressful situation returns, it'll be there smiling at you.... I hate that smile.

 

[hvacman250]

There is record of tomonts releasing theronts 72 days after leaving the fish.... 72 freaking days! Some fish will develop an immunity and have a low grade case going on that you can't see. WHEN a stressful situation returns, it'll be there smiling at you.... I hate that smile.

True, but 72 days was at a below normal temperature. We all know with dropping temp slows metabolism/life cycle. And I'm sure the 72 days was a FREAK thing and should not be factored into an equation.

Same as a man growing to 8'1" tall. It's possible, but highly unlikely. Statistical data shows he'll be 5'8"-6'2".

I am 7.5 weeks into my 9 week fallow period. Ive debated going 10 weeks, 12 weeks, even 16 weeks. What if I waited 16 and I had a super-strain of Ich that lasted 17 weeks unhatched? Statistically, I will have waited 9 weeks with a fallow tank and introducing NOTHING into it. No corals, no snails, no gravel vac, NOTHING! The fish went thru tank transfer (4x transfer) and 4 weeks of copper at 0.5 ppm. I'm willing to bet I have eradicated Ich with 99.99% certainty.

 

[sandwi54]

There is record of tomonts releasing theronts 72 days after leaving the fish.... 72 freaking days! Some fish will develop an immunity and have a low grade case going on that you can't see. WHEN a stressful situation returns, it'll be there smiling at you.... I hate that smile.

While the 72 days is true, it occurs at very low temperature. At tropical temperature in our tanks (75-80 deg F), the cycle is typically completed in 2-3 weeks. Putting fish under cupramine at 0.3-0.5ppm, at tropical temperature, for 3-4 weeks is guaranteed to kill every single ich organism almost 100% of the time. The chance of one escaping the timeframe or medication is astronomically low, probably similar to the probability of winning the lottery (quoted from MrTuskfish).

I have treated over 40 fish for ich with cupramine, and there hasn't been one that was not successfully treated. If you follow the procedure 100% and have one fish that is not cured, then what can i say? treat it again and go buy lottery!

 

[Urchinhead]

I think I posted a paper I wrote on Ich here recently. But to save the tl;dr Sandwi54, hvacman, et al. are correct. The only way to "cure" ich is what they state. The only way to "control" ich is the same treatment plus strictly following a QT regimen for any new "thing" that goes into the tank.

You have not cured your tank of ich. You *MAY* have helped your existing fish get a degree of acquired immunity from it but your tank still hosts it and any new fish you put in will get it.

I am piling on because too many times I have seen posts about how garlic or (insert miracle ointment, regent, potion etc here) magically cures ich and too many people will read it and get it in their heads that anything other than tank running fallow for 8 weeks plus treatment with copper et al. for 4-8 weeks plus QT and medicating of new fish for 10+ days will NOT cure ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry, extra3d, ich is still in your tank. You may be temporally "managing'' it or getting a short reprieve, but its there. You have done nothing to kill it. Ich often is "invisible", but its still there. Either in a non-feeding stage, in the gills, or other hard-to-spot location on fish.

Keeping stress low can delay the inevitable, but not prevent it. Nothing you are doing kills ich. Good water, good feeding, vitamins, etc., are part of just good husbandry that everyone should practice. The ich can (and will) reappear at any time. There are countless "stressors'' that could trigger an ich onslaught that are not within your control; a power outage (dropping temps), a fish death (ammonia), a fish reaching sexual maturity and becoming aggressive, just to name a few. Even without a major stressor, ich is going to be come a big problem for you; its just a matter of the timing.

I know a few people have seen ich return after treating it; but (IMO & IME) it is almost always because of some small error in the treatment process. Attention to detail when treating parasites is vital. Just a few minutes lapse in SG, Cu level, or whatever, is all the time an newly released ich theront needs to find a fish host and keep the cycle going. I also think it is possible, but very unlikely, that the parasite could have an offspring that was very resistant to the treatment. Simply the huge numbers of ich parasites present and the ability of tiny creatures to ''morph'' make this a distant possibility. Don't hang your hat on this, but I'm just covering all the bases. I have never encountered it and know nobody who can document it. But, I was told by a parasitologist (there really is such a job) at a major University SW aquaculture lab, that it was possible.


I sure don't have a degree in this stuff, just lots of experience. Prior to moving, I was ''recruited" by 3 LFS on a fairly regular basis, to help customers with parasites. The number of fish I've kept, and prophylactically treated for ich , numbers in the hundreds and I've never seen an ich infestation (or individual parasite0 that couldn't be killed. I now have over 1000 gallons of fish (not counting sump) and I have no ich. I have seen many tanks like yours: ich was there , then gone. But it always came back. Unfortunately, in the time I've spent on this forum, I've heard of countless accounts like yours. I have never heard anyone say "my tank has now been ich-free for a year!" If I did hear this, I would suspect that ich wasn't the proper diagnosis in the first place. I'm sure not trying to crush your excitement; just trying to state my opinion and experience.

I hope you will properly treat ich and hope other folks don't get a false sense of security from your "cure"; thus delaying real treatment. I know this is a windy response to a point that is very typical on our forum and there are several great posts above on the subject. I hope someone will benefit from all the info on this thread.

 

[seahorsedreams]

There was no chance of error in my instance, but I didn't use copper. I went with 1.008 hypo for over two months. I don't mean that in a cocky way. But to maintain a tank at 1.008 is really...... ummmmmm..... well you drop some water on your calibrated refractometer and look through it..... well, there's just zero chance of error.

To maintain a stable environment as to not stress the fish further.... there's the harder part that takes practice.

 

[jimmyj7090]

There was no chance of error in my instance, but I didn't use copper. I went with 1.008 hypo for over two months. I don't mean that in a cocky way. But to maintain a tank at 1.008 is really...... ummmmmm..... well you drop some water on your calibrated refractometer and look through it..... well, there's just zero chance of error.

To maintain a stable environment as to not stress the fish further.... there's the harder part that takes practice.

What procedure and standard did you use to calibrate that refractometer?

Saying "zero chance of error" is a pretty bold statement..

 

[seahorsedreams]

Ok, I'm not going to get into a debate about whether or not my skills are reliable enough. Calibrating, testing, interpreting and reacting is what I do for a living and I lead about 70 people to do it. Only difference is it's human lives, not fish lives.

If I was presenting new data, that would be one thing. But my experiences falls within the range of what has been seen in studies. It's existence has already been proven, I don't need to.

Colorni and Burgess 1997. Cryptocaryon irritans. Brown 1951, the cause of :white spot disease" in marine fish: An update. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238.

Now if this were copper. It would be a different thing. Those test results are open to interpretation and those test kits themselves may not be the most accurate thing around. Those results I would have questioned as there is no quality control with them.

 

[MrTuskfish]

There was no chance of error in my instance, but I didn't use copper. I went with 1.008 hypo for over two months. I don't mean that in a cocky way. But to maintain a tank at 1.008 is really...... ummmmmm..... well you drop some water on your calibrated refractometer and look through it..... well, there's just zero chance of error.

To maintain a stable environment as to not stress the fish further.... there's the harder part that takes practice.

Snorvich has an excellent sticky that shows why a guaranteed 100% kill, 100% of the time, isn't possible. (Flu shots aren't 100% perfect, either) But, you still have 3 choices: hypo, copper, tank transfer. These are as close to 100% as we can get (at least now). IMO & IME; any other method has about 0% chance of permanent success. The "old thinking" (IMO) of 30 days QT just isn't nearly enough.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951

 

[sandwi54]

Ok, I'm not going to get into a debate about whether or not my skills are reliable enough. Calibrating, testing, interpreting and reacting is what I do for a living and I lead about 70 people to do it. Only difference is it's human lives, not fish lives.

If I was presenting new data, that would be one thing. But my experiences falls within the range of what has been seen in studies. It's existence has already been proven, I don't need to.

Colorni and Burgess 1997. Cryptocaryon irritans. Brown 1951, the cause of :white spot disease" in marine fish: An update. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238.

Now if this were copper. It would be a different thing. Those test results are open to interpretation and those test kits themselves may not be the most accurate thing around. Those results I would have questioned as there is no quality control with them.

Renee, I don't doubt that your treatment process was rigorous. I have performed hyposalinity many times successfully in the past except for the last time. I held the salinity at 1.008 with an ATO, but for some reason, the fish would still get minor re-infections. After that I did some research and found that Dr. Burgess stated that hyposalinity actually does not kill ich on the spot, but rather "stresses" it into succumbing and dying. How long a theront can survive hyposalinity depends on how healthy it is and how soon it can find a host. Obviously, if the host is nearby (which happens all the time; fish sleep in the same spots every night), then the theront may attach to the host quickly and survive the hypo. On the other hand, if the theront is healthy and can withstand hypo for some time, it may also survive for a short period before it finds a host.

My point is not to say that hypo doesn't work, but rather that it is a less aggressive method of treating for ich. It has worked for me many times in the past except for once. If fish are heavily infested, I would use copper instead of hypo, since copper is a more aggressive treatment.

 

[redneckgearhead]

Renee, I don't doubt that your treatment process was rigorous. I have performed hyposalinity many times successfully in the past except for the last time. I held the salinity at 1.008 with an ATO, but for some reason, the fish would still get minor re-infections. After that I did some research and found that Dr. Burgess stated that hyposalinity actually does not kill ich on the spot, but rather "stresses" it into succumbing and dying. How long a theront can survive hyposalinity depends on how healthy it is and how soon it can find a host. Obviously, if the host is nearby (which happens all the time; fish sleep in the same spots every night), then the theront may attach to the host quickly and survive the hypo. On the other hand, if the theront is healthy and can withstand hypo for some time, it may also survive for a short period before it finds a host.

My point is not to say that hypo doesn't work, but rather that it is a less aggressive method of treating for ich. It has worked for me many times in the past except for once. If fish are heavily infested, I would use copper instead of hypo, since copper is a more aggressive treatment.

Great info! Thanks for posting!

 

[Paul B]

Oh great another ich thread.
I'm staying out of this one but they are interesting, It's amazing all the opinions there are about this. Have fun. :uhoh3: