Humuhumunuku
Premium Member
correlation does not imply causation
Possible New Cure for Ick?
- Thread starter cratylus
- Start date
Well, sort of. Correlation in and of itself does not guarantee causation. There are statistical tests that can give a level of surety about causation but those are not being employed above.
tang named junkyard
Well-known member
I understand the cycle of ich. I'll post real results. No other fish have ich so something tells me it's a stress issue and not all fish get ich simply because it's in the tank. The way to beat ich is to get the fish to a healthy stage to fight it off. If there is something that knocks off the ich long enough for a fish to recoup its immunity than that in itself is a cure, even if the ich is still alive and floating around which it always is IMO, just in a dormant stage. The flu kills people every year, but not most people who are healthy. BTW, I put a little ginger on my tongue and zowey that's got a kick. I could see parasites avoiding a fish that reeks or tastes like this stuff.
Humuhumunuku
Premium Member
You're assuming an invertebrate reacts to a taste the same way you do. Eat a hot chilli and you might be sweating. Feed it to a bird, and nothing will happen.
When there are known ways to defeat ich, why would you rely on hoping the fish can beat it on its own.
The flu does kill many people each year... some of whom are quite healthy before hand.
tang named junkyard
Well-known member
No signs of ich 2 days post ginger/garlic use.
Humuhumunuku
Premium Member
well Jason2459 has no signs of ich 2 days post ketchup, so I bet that's the real cure.
Please show me where the taste buds are that don't like ginger.
jason2459
Well-known member
I'm thinking of breaking apart each ingredient in ketchup to see which part actually works. I'm thinking of starting with salt... :bum:
tang named junkyard
Well-known member
So what would make all ich fall off over night. I know your answer is they will be back but they all timed a simotaneous jump off? Why don't ich attach dead fish? Something in their makeup is attracted Normal living tissue.
Humuhumunuku
Premium Member
Since all the protozoan are likely of the same strain, they probably react similarly to environmental ques. Darkness has been shown to be one of these ques, so the ich could just as easily have fattened up and droped off the same night. Probably where your fish sleeps, thus making it easier for reinfection. And the white dots aren't ich, that's just a reaction from the fish. You need a microscope to actually see the protozoan.
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jason2459
Well-known member
You have to understand that what you see as white spots is not the actual parasite. Those white spots didn't fall off. The skin went back to normal. The parasite could easily still be there. The picture above is the parasite you are talking about greatly magnifies. It is very hardy and for people that say UV killed it off is highly unlikely. They require extraordinarily high amounts of UV exposure to be effective. Most consumer units if ran at the recommended rate for parasites wouldn't come close for this particular nasty. I can give reference to a chart later when I get the chance. Garlic is thought to help with internal parasites. Again, even if remotely true what we are talking about here is a subcutaneous parasite and will not be effected by anything in the water while buried in the fish or effected by anything consumed.
That is why the only treatments that are known to work right now are treatments that effect the parasite while it is no longer on the fish. Some people though just don't care and live with it in the tank. Its not the worse thing a fish could get and probably one of the most survivable.
Last thing to note is parasites in general don't like dead hosts and will leave them once dead. They need the blood to be pumping. These things are not carnivorous and would rather keep your fish alive.
jason2459
Well-known member
Here's a good chart breakdown for UV supporters in treating for "ich". There can be some really good reasons for using UV but not for treating for this parasite.
BTW, here's a good breakdown of UV exposure requirements
Trying to achieve the required dosage to kill of "ich" is extremely high and would require either an extremely large piece of equipment that most people would not want or want to pay for OR would require such slow flow rates it would be completely impractical to be able to get anywhere near scratching the surface of killing them off as this is also only able to dose to trophonts or tomites in the water column. Using a UV to pass water between two systems is perfectly legit and where it's used at large commercial ventures but even those I doubt are dosing enough UV to kill of the ich passing through because the flow rates are most likely to high. They would be more concerned with more troublesome viruses, bacteria, and parasites.
For example this is a Emperor aquatics smartUV Sterilizer that are considered to be one of the top UV sterilizer makers for aquariums out there. Look at the chart and the suggested flow rates to kill of protozoa. At those rates it would dose enough to kill off most things but not come close to killing off ich. You would have to cut the flow rate in almost half to achieve that. Then at that flow rate what are you actually achieving. Even the largest consumer model they make it is suggest to run at 570GPH. To kill off ich you would need somewhere around 300GPH. You may get something there on a small system but look at the size of that unit and imagine the heat it would generate. Almost 7 feet long and over a foot in diameter! and then there's the cost of the unit...
BTW, here's a good breakdown of UV exposure requirements
Trying to achieve the required dosage to kill of "ich" is extremely high and would require either an extremely large piece of equipment that most people would not want or want to pay for OR would require such slow flow rates it would be completely impractical to be able to get anywhere near scratching the surface of killing them off as this is also only able to dose to trophonts or tomites in the water column. Using a UV to pass water between two systems is perfectly legit and where it's used at large commercial ventures but even those I doubt are dosing enough UV to kill of the ich passing through because the flow rates are most likely to high. They would be more concerned with more troublesome viruses, bacteria, and parasites.
For example this is a Emperor aquatics smartUV Sterilizer that are considered to be one of the top UV sterilizer makers for aquariums out there. Look at the chart and the suggested flow rates to kill of protozoa. At those rates it would dose enough to kill off most things but not come close to killing off ich. You would have to cut the flow rate in almost half to achieve that. Then at that flow rate what are you actually achieving. Even the largest consumer model they make it is suggest to run at 570GPH. To kill off ich you would need somewhere around 300GPH. You may get something there on a small system but look at the size of that unit and imagine the heat it would generate. Almost 7 feet long and over a foot in diameter! and then there's the cost of the unit...
Peter T
Gallantly Forward
Hmm.. talk about an OLD thread. When one applies common sense in regards to this treatment and the age of this thread, you can pretty much conclude that the treatment doesn't work.
Short version: This thread is almost 10 years old with quite a high number of views. If it really worked, it would of caught on by now.
Long version:
If this method really worked, why is it that it hasn't caught on and is spoken about more widely? It would of revolutionized marine ich treatment. This idea has at least been around for almost 10 years on Reef Central with over 70 thousand views. So the argument that not a lot of people know about it is not really valid in my opinion.
I can understand why the allure of feeding ginger would be so great if it worked. Feeding ginger would be a miracle cure for ich. I mean ginger is cheap, all you have to do is chop it up and mix with food, and you do not have to quarantine and is invert safe. You can be lazy treating ich with it and not worry about anything in your tank dying from medications.
For the ones who says it worked for them, have you verified this by looking under the microscope and checking if the ich is truly gone? As most of us know, marine fish living with ich does not always display any outward symptoms, especially if they are otherwise healthy.
I think one of the most common reasons people say a certain method (feeding garlic, ginger in this case, UV, etc.) works for them in beating ich is the circumstances involved during the ich outbreak and then subsequent recovery. One of the most common reasons I hear/read about for fish breaking out with ich is when fish are newly introduced to the tank and not quarantined from the beginning. I believe in these cases the ich breakout is most likely due to stress. Either the stress from being in a new environment - the new fish breaks out in ich. Or the stress of having a new fish in the tank - the old fish in the tank breaking out. Or both.
The hobbyist then tries garlic, ginger, UV, and whatever else they have read about to beat off the ich. And lo and behold! the ich goes away. I believe the success stories we hear/read about in these cases can be attributed more to the fact that the stress sources goes away (the new fish gets use to its new tank, the old fish in the tank gets use to the new fish) and the ich infested fishes' immune systems fight the infection off enough where the signs are no longer visible. People then claim they have been ich free for x years after garlic/ginger/UV/no treatment. It is still there and lurking, healthy fish just do not show it.
Short version: This thread is almost 10 years old with quite a high number of views. If it really worked, it would of caught on by now.
Long version:
If this method really worked, why is it that it hasn't caught on and is spoken about more widely? It would of revolutionized marine ich treatment. This idea has at least been around for almost 10 years on Reef Central with over 70 thousand views. So the argument that not a lot of people know about it is not really valid in my opinion.
I can understand why the allure of feeding ginger would be so great if it worked. Feeding ginger would be a miracle cure for ich. I mean ginger is cheap, all you have to do is chop it up and mix with food, and you do not have to quarantine and is invert safe. You can be lazy treating ich with it and not worry about anything in your tank dying from medications.
For the ones who says it worked for them, have you verified this by looking under the microscope and checking if the ich is truly gone? As most of us know, marine fish living with ich does not always display any outward symptoms, especially if they are otherwise healthy.
I think one of the most common reasons people say a certain method (feeding garlic, ginger in this case, UV, etc.) works for them in beating ich is the circumstances involved during the ich outbreak and then subsequent recovery. One of the most common reasons I hear/read about for fish breaking out with ich is when fish are newly introduced to the tank and not quarantined from the beginning. I believe in these cases the ich breakout is most likely due to stress. Either the stress from being in a new environment - the new fish breaks out in ich. Or the stress of having a new fish in the tank - the old fish in the tank breaking out. Or both.
The hobbyist then tries garlic, ginger, UV, and whatever else they have read about to beat off the ich. And lo and behold! the ich goes away. I believe the success stories we hear/read about in these cases can be attributed more to the fact that the stress sources goes away (the new fish gets use to its new tank, the old fish in the tank gets use to the new fish) and the ich infested fishes' immune systems fight the infection off enough where the signs are no longer visible. People then claim they have been ich free for x years after garlic/ginger/UV/no treatment. It is still there and lurking, healthy fish just do not show it.
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tang named junkyard
Well-known member
Ich is 100% gone of my regal tang. I'm not sure if it was the ginger or something else but not a dot after a once heavy infestation. The minimum conclusion is that the fishes immune system can beat the parasite, even fish like blue tangs. No other treatments, methods or water changes.
john rochon
New member
Have you even read the life cycle of ich?? How long has there been no spots on your fish? Are you not the one with multiple large tangs in a small tank
that was argued over in another thread? Now you know were the stress is coming from:eek1:
I've seen my fish in my tank NOT have ich for many many months and then for no ''apperant'' reason bang. Was ich always reproducing maybe at a lower level in the gills. Possible and probable.
A tank would have to be fallow for no less than 6 to 8 weeks for the cycle to stop.
Theres also been some talk about Ich loosing its ability to thrive if no new ''strains'' are introduced after some time.
that was argued over in another thread? Now you know were the stress is coming from:eek1:
I've seen my fish in my tank NOT have ich for many many months and then for no ''apperant'' reason bang. Was ich always reproducing maybe at a lower level in the gills. Possible and probable.
A tank would have to be fallow for no less than 6 to 8 weeks for the cycle to stop.
Theres also been some talk about Ich loosing its ability to thrive if no new ''strains'' are introduced after some time.
goldmaniac
New member
I've used crushed, fresh garlic on my tanks whenever ich appears for about 12 years, now. I am a firm believer that the smell of a fish that ingested garlic repels ich cysts. I can totally see ginger doing the same thing. I've had positive results over and over between 2000 and 2008 with garlic.
I haven't had an ich outbreak in my display for years, although I know for sure that it's in the tank.
around 2005, I tried a treatment in the tank to rid the tank if ich, and it is my humble opinion, after 6 months of quarantine, that KEEPING a tank ich-free is next to impossible. too many possible contaminants and possible points of entry. Yes, you can empty the tank of all fish for 5 months, and keep a mimic chocolate tang and a Lamark's Angelfish at 1.009 S.G. (calibrated hydrometer) for 3 months in a QT tank, but ich came back on me.
I was EXTRA careful with my salinity for the original inhabitants, I hit any new fish with copper in a QT for the 3-4 week period, and when i put new additions into the tank: ich outbreak.
anyway, i find that when I would spot ich on a fish, a simple daily treatment of fresh, crushed garlic (and maybe ginger) right into the display tank is much more effective and successful than stressing out fish by catching them and QT'ing them with copper or hyposalinity. I add 2-3 cloves for my 120 gallon per day.
again: there is ich in my tank, but fish have not had any outbreaks for years. I think it's just stress (or a visibly infested fish added to a tank) that causes outbreaks.
\ just my opinion.
I haven't had an ich outbreak in my display for years, although I know for sure that it's in the tank.
around 2005, I tried a treatment in the tank to rid the tank if ich, and it is my humble opinion, after 6 months of quarantine, that KEEPING a tank ich-free is next to impossible. too many possible contaminants and possible points of entry. Yes, you can empty the tank of all fish for 5 months, and keep a mimic chocolate tang and a Lamark's Angelfish at 1.009 S.G. (calibrated hydrometer) for 3 months in a QT tank, but ich came back on me.
I was EXTRA careful with my salinity for the original inhabitants, I hit any new fish with copper in a QT for the 3-4 week period, and when i put new additions into the tank: ich outbreak.
anyway, i find that when I would spot ich on a fish, a simple daily treatment of fresh, crushed garlic (and maybe ginger) right into the display tank is much more effective and successful than stressing out fish by catching them and QT'ing them with copper or hyposalinity. I add 2-3 cloves for my 120 gallon per day.
again: there is ich in my tank, but fish have not had any outbreaks for years. I think it's just stress (or a visibly infested fish added to a tank) that causes outbreaks.
\ just my opinion.
goldmaniac
New member
.. and whether or not the garlic works, I think that it's a better alternative to QT'ing a fish with ich. i believe QT stresses the fish even more, contributing to its demise. Keep it in the tank, feed it well, and keep everyone happy.
tang named junkyard
Well-known member
This whole thing started about a month ago. Ich doesn't work in teams meaning they don't all jump on and off at once. You may see heavy loads vs lower loads but I've seen the cycle work on this tang. All is gone. None of the other fish have ever had a trace of ich.
