Possible new tank transfer method for MARINE ICH ???

[Reefnation.Jon]

Question for the pros.

Since the parasite is only on the host for up to 7 days could you do a transfer every day for 7 days. By doing this you could use a smaller tank and not be as concerned with ammonia build up.

Or even 4 transfers ever 2 days? Ich parasite is only on the host fish for 2-7 days. then drop off for 2 - 72 days. Transferring ever 2 days for a total of 8 days would numerically work?

And the reason to do even that many transfers is to take into consideration averages.

Again just wanting opinions. Based on the numbers this should work.

 

[wooden_reefer]

It is very easy to address the ammonia issue.

You can cycle a batch of medium and use a portion of such medium at every tank transfer. Each portion after use has to be fallow for 12 weeks before reuse for next QT. Ammonia need not be the issue.

I do not like TT for the work and the handling of livestock, however.

But the ammonia problem is very easy to address.

 

[sleepydoc]

What you proposed would probably work, but I'm not sure there would be significant benefits to it.

You'd have to do the last transfer after 7 days to ensure you don't miss any, meaning you'd be doing 7-8 transfers as opposed to 4 = more work and more water, and possibly more stress to the fish from being captured.

In general NH4 won't start building up that quickly and can be easily treated with Amquel if it were, so unless you have a really small tank or a lot of fish, ammonia shouldn't be an issue.

Also, the tanks need to be thoroughly dried or otherwise sanitized between transfers. Emptying a tank, getting it sanitized and then up and ready for fish again in 24 hours is pretty tight.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Your fish might not be too happy with you moving him every day. He could get a bit stressed. If stressed, those lesions caused by the parasite exiting his body will be at greater risk of infection. Not too mention, he could stop eating because of the stress. Also, the constant acclimation to the new water may also stress him... I don't think there's many people out there that have tried to tank transfer every day, so it's tough to say what adverse effects it may have.

 

[triggreef]

It is alot of work the way it is designed and potentially you will go through a lot of salt. I'd stick to the 3 day rule so as not to stress the fish more than needed. I did the ttm the normal way and balancing between the normal chores, wife, and one yr old, it consumed a lot of time. I also treated with cupramine to be safe afterwards anyway. My new plan of QT is to just treat with cupramine and prazi and call it a day (or a few weeks anyway)...

 

[wooden_reefer]

Your fish might not be too happy with you moving him every day. He could get a bit stressed. If stressed, those lesions caused by the parasite exiting his body will be at greater risk of infection. Not too mention, he could stop eating because of the stress. Also, the constant acclimation to the new water may also stress him... I don't think there's many people out there that have tried to tank transfer every day, so it's tough to say what adverse effects it may have.

+1

plus the increase risk of bacterial infection due to transfer.

Leave fish alone as much as possible; do not handle them unless necessary, IME.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Prime and Amquel are often not useful if some drug that is affected is needed.

Often possible I admit, but in general I'd avoid them if easy.

Ammonia is VERY bad for fish; the long term consequence will not be known for months later even with low level of exposure. One has to be very careful when ammonia is a possibility.

 

[sleepydoc]

Prime and Amquel are often not useful if some drug that is affected is needed.

+1

Never combine medications or additives unless you know they can safely be used together.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Cycling medium in advance is always preferable to planning on relying on Prime or Amquel. These are useful if one is in a bind but do not opt for them as a matter of choice, IMO.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I think Prime and AMquel should publish a list of drugs that their product has impact on.

Likely the top dozen or so most common drugs will be helpful.

Often I don't use it because of lack of information.

 

[jamesbaur13]

As long as we're on this note (and if you don't believe me, test it)... I know at least Amquel does this and I would guess Prime does the same.

One thing to understand about Ammonia... it is less toxic at lower Ph. One of the mechanics behind all ammonia detoxifiers is to lower Ph. This is why they call them a "detoxifier"... it makes ammonia less toxic, it doesn't remove ammonia. Understand you are trading one evil for another. A sudden Ph swing (which is exactly what ammonia detoxifiers do, they instantly drop Ph), can also kill fish.

The bottom line is... do not use them unless the situation is dire.

Also, understand, ammonia detoxifiers DO NOT remove ammonia, they "detoxify" it. Meaning, if you still test high ammonia after adding the detoxifier... this is normal. What you don't want to do is add more Prime or Amquel. You can OD on it, you can further swing Ph, your fish can't adapt to it and it kills them.

I see so many posts about QT tanks and ammonia and a good number of them stating to just use Amquel or Prime to reduce ammonia... this really isn't a solution, it's a last resort.

 

[triggreef]

As long as we're on this note (and if you don't believe me, test it)... I know at least Amquel does this and I would guess Prime does the same.

One thing to understand about Ammonia... it is less toxic at lower Ph. One of the mechanics behind all ammonia detoxifiers is to lower Ph. This is why they call them a "detoxifier"... it makes ammonia less toxic, it doesn't remove ammonia. Understand you are trading one evil for another. A sudden Ph swing (which is exactly what ammonia detoxifiers do, they instantly drop Ph), can also kill fish.

The bottom line is... do not use them unless the situation is dire.

Also, understand, ammonia detoxifiers DO NOT remove ammonia, they "detoxify" it. Meaning, if you still test high ammonia after adding the detoxifier... this is normal. What you don't want to do is add more Prime or Amquel. You can OD on it, you can further swing Ph, your fish can't adapt to it and it kills them.

I see so many posts about QT tanks and ammonia and a good number of them stating to just use Amquel or Prime to reduce ammonia... this really isn't a solution, it's a last resort.

That is good to know.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

Thanks for all the responses.

From what I am reading is that the process would work. Some say it may be more stress on the fish. This may be a valid argument. But if done every 2 days for a total of 8 days ( 4 transfers ) we would be reducing the over all time of the process by 33%. The reduction in time of the over all process may make up for or at least equal out any possibililty of added stress.

I also agree with the ammonia issue. most of the time it is not an issue unless you have too many fish in the same tank. I personally us 5 gallon buckets and one fish at a time in each for tank transfer. I have put fish as large at 4" in a 5 gallon bucket with no issues with amonia. Anything larger would need a larger tank/bucket.

 

[wooden_reefer]

As long as we're on this note (and if you don't believe me, test it)... I know at least Amquel does this and I would guess Prime does the same.

One thing to understand about Ammonia... it is less toxic at lower Ph. One of the mechanics behind all ammonia detoxifiers is to lower Ph. This is why they call them a "detoxifier"... it makes ammonia less toxic, it doesn't remove ammonia. Understand you are trading one evil for another. A sudden Ph swing (which is exactly what ammonia detoxifiers do, they instantly drop Ph), can also kill fish.

The bottom line is... do not use them unless the situation is dire.

Also, understand, ammonia detoxifiers DO NOT remove ammonia, they "detoxify" it. Meaning, if you still test high ammonia after adding the detoxifier... this is normal. What you don't want to do is add more Prime or Amquel. You can OD on it, you can further swing Ph, your fish can't adapt to it and it kills them.

I see so many posts about QT tanks and ammonia and a good number of them stating to just use Amquel or Prime to reduce ammonia... this really isn't a solution, it's a last resort.

Ammonia is less toxic at lower PH, but you cannot make use of this fact.

The PH is the independent variable, practically speaking.

Except on the debate on the benefit of drip acclimation after you have livestock in the bag after shipment and are about to release them. This is the only case when the ph is concerned.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I also agree with the ammonia issue. most of the time it is not an issue unless you have too many fish in the same tank. .

How do you know?

The effect of even low levels of exposure to ammonia is not knowable many months later.

IMO, there may be a level low enough to not be a concern, but what is that level? I don't know, just that I know ammonia is very bad for some fish.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

I would assume if it doesnt test positive on the API tests it would not be harmful either presently or in the future.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I would assume if it doesnt test positive on the API tests it would not be harmful either presently or in the future.

Why would you think so?

A test for salmon shows that even very low level of ammonia can be harmful.

I have not read a species by species catalog of sensitivity to ammonia, but the long term impact is often not knowable.

 

[CliftonArbogast]

Is this to cure a tank that has ich, or a new QT method? If the Ich is in the tank you need the parasite to die off from that as well which takes the majority of the time if you follow normal protocols.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

this is to cure fish not the tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Is this to cure a tank that has ich, or a new QT method? If the Ich is in the tank you need the parasite to die off from that as well which takes the majority of the time if you follow normal protocols.

In general, TT is not a good method (even worse IMO) in the case that infestation has already happened in DT. This is because you have to wait for a 10-12 week fallow period to expire.

If you do not have cycled medium for QT, you do not want to wait 10-12 weeks.

And if you have the commonsense to cycle the medium for QT in advance, you would know how illogical TT is, too much work and too exposed to bacterial infection in the process, IMO.