Possible Pathogen Based Acro Necrosis

[montrealreef]

So sorry to hear that things aren't working out Kip, and I know how discouraging it is. This hobby can truly make you feel helpless sometimes. That said, I think that you have achieved what many of us only dream of and this little glitch should not cause you to lose faith. Hang in there man, you'll eventually overcome this.

Just a thought on the side, I noticed that you are in the pest control buiseness. Any chance that this may be related to some sort of pesticide contaminant?


sam

 

[old salty]

Good question Montreal. I do have an exterminator, but I forbid him to spray any downstairs area of my house (where the tank is located.) He uses those sticky mouse traps to catch bugs.

 

[Kip]

that is always a primary concern whenever a problem arises even though I am don't do field work. i do handle things/papers that are handled by field technicians so i am constantly washing my hands.

with that possible contaminant in mind, this is why i ran lots of fresh carbon and poly-floss in the beginning. also, primarily what we use on a daily basis are synthetic pyrethroids which are particular ichthytoxins and i'd expect to see something in the fish (which i havent)

i guess thats the tough thing about the whole situation... is that it affected acros only.

 

[Kip]

for those wondering... the safety of pest control around an aquarium is a function of how professional the company is, how well trained the technicians are, and how responsible the employees are.

me being an aquarium hobbyist, we address aquaria and pond concerns proactively and repetitively in our organization.

i would say that pest control around a tank is perfectly safe, but that would be assuming that the technician is properly educated. unfortunately in our industry, there are professionals and there are those just trying to make a buck.

 

[FoothillCorals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10094823#post10094823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
main thing that concerns me is that via IM and/or PM... i am having more and more people approach me with similar problems.

I know there will always be hobbyists with tank issues. That's just the nature of the beast.

Its just w/ all of the messages coming outta the woodwork lately, I think we really need to be thinking hard about new acquisitions... especially from the wild.

I really hope the problems of the many are unrelated.

For those fellow reef keepers who've sent me messages in confidenitiality, dont worry I wont disclose your issues to others.

I do hope all who are experiencing difficulties will be responsible enough to cease trading/selling to others or at the very least disclose the issues to the recipient.

Maybe this is uncalled for, But.... It has been ****ing me off. I have been in this hobby for a long time. And in my experience The scruples of a lot of the current Coral Farmers are pretty LOW in recent years. I know of two farmers (mail order / retail) that have been having major TN issues and continuing to sell corals without any disclosure. Not only that but one of them has been moving his corals around to his different holding tanks in hope of saving them, but potentially infecting his entire stock. He did not know what the problem was but did not hesitate to spread it.

I went to MACNA last year and brought home Monty eating nudis on some acro frags. Went to the Bay Area Coral Farmers Market two weeks ago and bought some Montis. The plugs wre covered in AEFWs. Another vendor Was selling fresh cut frags that I could tell were VERY stressed and probably not going to make it, but He still sold them to people, And sure enough they died with in days on everyone that purchased one.

For over a decade I never had any parasites / TN problems in my tanks. These days you can not trust anyone. Parasites are running rampant, And I believe that it's mainly the retailers fault. Vendors should be banned from the Coral Farmers Markets that bring infected frags to these events. Instead the attitude is just buy some iodine before you go home and keep your mouth shut.

I guess what got me going was seeing that some reefers corresponding with Kip want to keep this confidential. I wish I knew who those people were, because it is that type of behavior that is perpetuating a lot of these SPS issues that people are having today. Sorry for the rant but, am starting to get very frustated with all of the people that are just tring to make a buck and not better the hobby.

 

[The Saltman]

This whole issue has made me rethink on whether to add any new sps to my system from coral vendors. Can everyone relate to having these issues after adding a new frag from a vendor?

 

[Kip]

crap.... my intentions were not to turn this into a witch hunt... i really hope this doesnt migrate towards such

 

[The Saltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10106265#post10106265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
crap.... my intentions were not to turn this into a witch hunt... i really hope this doesnt migrate towards such

I don't think FootHillCorals could have said anything any better. Its not a witchhunt kip, its just that there is just some shady business that goes on in this hobby and it ruins it. I totally agree with others and do not understand why some people are so quiet on posting about their tank problems. I applaud FootHillCorals for saying what he said.

 

[FoothillCorals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10106265#post10106265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
crap.... my intentions were not to turn this into a witch hunt... i really hope this doesnt migrate towards such

Sorry if it came off that way. In no way am I looking to start a witch hunt. I was just venting and hopefuly make some people think twice about there own practices and also what typs of vendors they will suport in the future.

 

[wentreefgirl]

I agree also with recent posts. I sell on frags.org but havent since all this started. Im not worried about any sales right now. Just how my corals look. I am one who wants someone happy with what they got and it wouldnt be that if I sell them right now.And im not afraid of loosing any business by posting my problems here. I want to help with a solution. Not keep the problem blooming.

 

[Kip]

little summary of recent events... i think i've already discussed the "community treatment" herein, but here's a little review

did a community bath treatment for 48hrs of all frags in the 75g rescue tank

i knew something went wrong when i took the cover off of the hospital tank (covered because doxy breaks down in light)... the water was a pinkish cloudy color

i drained the water and removed the frags to find that most of them had bleached and necrosed

i put them back in the 75g to see if some would survive. some further necrosed and died and some are still hanging in there now almost a week later.

the display... i am currently bringing temps back up and there is no further evidence of this illness in the display or the frag tank (all connected)

i believe the illness is gone from the display system

in the 75g... i pretty much killed all the illness by killing the corals

i think i am completely done with this problem... if no further signs manifest themselves over the next coupla weeks, i will consider the problem done and over.

 

[The Saltman]

Kip, you mentioned you had good results when you first tried the doxy on a few frags. Are those frags still doing well?

 

[Kip]

those frags that were first treated went back in for a 2nd round of treatment when i did the other frags

short answer to the question... the ecoral acro is still alive although stressed from the treatment. the initial necrosis i felt that was pathogen based would have consumed the coral by now, but the recession has stopped dead in its tracks

there are a few frags holding on from the "community treatment" but they've a long, tough road to recovery ahead of them

 

[wentreefgirl]

Yippeee, houston, may we have clearance for landing back at club reef.

 

[Kip]

i wish there was a definitive conclusion to help others in the future, but there isnt

there is just a series of events that stopped this problem for me
.... i may feel a little success in sidestepping complete catastrophe, but i still have to think about that bucket full of losses

series of corrective events that probably played a role in solving this problem:
1) removal of all signs of the illness.... tip looked bad, i tossed a whole branch, a whole branch looked bad, i tossed a whole coral, recession at the base of a frag or colony, i tossed the whole coral. Pretty much any "bio-mass" w/ issues was completely removed from the system no matter how big the sacrifice of the remaining "healthy" parts of the coral
2) temperature drop... this either slowed or stopped the metabolism of the "illness" and allowd #1 to be more effective
3) doxy treatments work, but more studies need to be done on this. there were successes and there were failures with its experimentation
4) time.... maybe father time played a role, or even a primary role in the eradication of this "illness"... but keep in mind that i'd been experiencing this nearly 4 months and 2wks of #1, 2, and 3 made the problem go away (with #1, i feel, being the primary corrective course of action... man, it sure was hard tossing corals that i would like to have saved)

I still believe (even w/o hard evidence) that this was all an acro specific pathogen because no other types of corals other than acros were affected. No other inverts or fish were affected. If not acro specific, it shows how delicate the immune systems of acros are.

Maybe there are clues herein to lead to further discovery if anyone else runs into this and has the education and resources to research it properly.

Regardless... i do feel it is all over, the damage has been done, and it is time to move on. Just still questioning the direction in which I will move.

 

[The Saltman]

Kip, I think someone may have had a point in the fact that you used doxy on a lot of frags at once, which in turn, killed off a lot of bacteria at once and was harmful to the corals. Do you think maybe if you would have did a few frags at a time with the doxy, the results could have possibly been better?

 

[Kip]

yeah.... the first treatment i did 3 frags at once ... a grand total of about 5" in acro to 20g of water.... i am betting i could double, triple, or even quadruple that with no problem. my fault was doing about 24-30 at one time... a few being mini colonies, a few being large, multiple branched frags, and a the rest frags of 3" or less

i also wonder if the mass of acro mounts and rock bases contributed to the overload.... pretty sure it did

my whole idea behind treating all of the acros from that tank at once was to be sure there wasnt one acro left behind in the 75g to harbor the illness so that it would spread to the others. i could've still achieved this, but it would have required multiple "holding tanks" from which i treated a few at a time, put those into display, and then treating more from holding. Goal would be to not be putting "cleaned" acros back in with sick corals.

I just woke up.. it is 5am... i have a feeling i didnt express all of that as eloquently as i'd like.

Questions?

 

[Kip]

someone on my forum asked me to come up with a list of all of the losses from this "illness".... this was my response (thought i'd copy it here in case anyone else was wondering)

that's gonna be a list i will have to work on because this all started in my frag tank where i was growing out new stuff.

the corals that were mature and in display that I completely lost were the a. desalwii and a. horrida (which I may be able to get back due to recent distributions... the desalwii... i only fragged twice and both of those were victims of accidents in others tanks)

mature colonies greatly reduced to smaller colonies or several large frags include: aq city red milli (tyree LE), cali tort, a. noblis, a. yongei, my "pink cotton acro", "old blue tabler", and a. elseyi. Almost forgot.. the blue/grn a. latistella was wiped, but I do have a healthy frag of it at work that i transplanted long before any issues started.

a. micropthalma was completely clipped away because i knew i had a lot of it "out there" that i could get back. In removing dead/dying micro branches an intertwined orange digitata colony got busted up and I just pulled it all.

Frags lost... I will probably have to go back and add to this thread as I remember each one but here goes.

-blue a. hoeksemai
-solid purple a. secale with grn polyps
-blue a. austera
-teal a. austera
-radioactive grn a. sarmentosa (from jocox)
-blue prostrata (tyree LE)
-20k leagues a. lokani (tyree LE)
-g. carrol's ultimate blue stag (tyree LE)
-ponape torch (tyree LE)
-purple unknown (tyree LE)
-a. solitaryiensis (tyree LE)
-multiple a. gomezi's
-multiple germ purple polyp grn based acros
-several blue "true" echinatas
-tub's mystic acro
-roland balmes stoddarti (but i do have one at work)
-multiple chips acro's
-multiple purple pillows
-TCN Lokani
-red abratanoides
-blue mille
-grape polyp yellow nasuta (i may have a tiny speck of it surviving)
-RR Midnite Stag
-RR Icepick Stag
-RR blue sceptor (gomezi)
-ecoral unknown (large frag now about 1/4 or less is left)
-2 different a. cerealis are gone
-miami orchid is gone (i sold this colony upon rescape... some got frags, somebody got the colony, and the frag i kept died... i am sure i could easily get it back)
-pink hyacinthus with blue tips
-CD deep purple tricolor
-Rainbow Mille (sold colony during rescape, kept frag... frag died)
-OX's fraglings (3 pale purplish frags... all gone)
-bonsai (but i have some at work)
-blue and green tenuis
-ice blue samoensis (several)
-a. rosaria
-green turaki
-teal turaki
-orange mille w/ grn polyps
-peach prostrata
-multiple aqua delights (larger mini colony previously sold to local)
-pink/grn mille


i think that about wraps it up

 

[fishdoc11]

FWIW when I was in Nashville giving my SPS talk last weekend a good friend of mine (C_Stowers here on RC) who is doing his PhD research at Vanderbilt told me a couple of Japanese researchers have actually published a paper on RTN. It is apparently caused by one of 2 proteins reaching the mitochondria of a cell. These 2 proteins then in turn cause the mitochondria to self destruct and release substances that cause other cells to self destruct (similar to apoptosis or programmed cell death). This causes a chain reaction and leads to the death of the coral. If a sufficient quantity of substance is released into the water column it can indeed be contagious. That is what I remember from what he told me and I will post the paper when I receive a copy. Apparently this same thing happens in many organisms.
From what I have seen in this thread and from the info presented I would guess that corals received from tanks with recent episodes of RTN or maybe even frags that have been taken off of colonies that are RTNing could be what is causing what lots of you describe.
FWIW, Chris

 

[mmotown]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10122718#post10122718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
i wish there was a definitive conclusion to help others in the future, but there isnt

there is just a series of events that stopped this problem for me
.... i may feel a little success in sidestepping complete catastrophe, but i still have to think about that bucket full of losses

series of corrective events that probably played a role in solving this problem:
1) removal of all signs of the illness.... tip looked bad, i tossed a whole branch, a whole branch looked bad, i tossed a whole coral, recession at the base of a frag or colony, i tossed the whole coral. Pretty much any "bio-mass" w/ issues was completely removed from the system no matter how big the sacrifice of the remaining "healthy" parts of the coral
2) temperature drop... this either slowed or stopped the metabolism of the "illness" and allowd #1 to be more effective
3) doxy treatments work, but more studies need to be done on this. there were successes and there were failures with its experimentation
4) time.... maybe father time played a role, or even a primary role in the eradication of this "illness"... but keep in mind that i'd been experiencing this nearly 4 months and 2wks of #1, 2, and 3 made the problem go away (with #1, i feel, being the primary corrective course of action... man, it sure was hard tossing corals that i would like to have saved)

I still believe (even w/o hard evidence) that this was all an acro specific pathogen because no other types of corals other than acros were affected. No other inverts or fish were affected. If not acro specific, it shows how delicate the immune systems of acros are.

Maybe there are clues herein to lead to further discovery if anyone else runs into this and has the education and resources to research it properly.

Regardless... i do feel it is all over, the damage has been done, and it is time to move on. Just still questioning the direction in which I will move.

Kip I have fraged everything that was STN or had signs of something wasn't right. Along with water changes and putting my prize corals in my friends tank everything is starting to look fine. What I am really observing is the corals that I have butchered/fragged and remounted they are doing fine. I have some nice colonies so I am stopping the stn at the first sign. Also at one time I had low mag and I was raising it just to make sure my problems were not do to the low level. All of my problems started with using pappone. Algae outbreaks that led to cyano with led to all other sorts of problems. Now I just about have the algae completly gone and I am back to using DT's Phyto and Roti Feast. Not jumping on anymore band wagons!!!!