Potter's Angel, Why 'Expert Only'?
- Thread starter nivekid
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jjk_reef00
New member
I've been curious about this too. I would love to have a pair some day...
Why is their survival rate poor? Collection? Temp? Feeding?
here is one of the first answers on Google...from wet web media...
It's relatively abundant in and amongst the finger-like coral (Porites compressa) which is its typical domain, but so secretive that w/o keen searching and patience, most divers miss it entirely. This cryptic lifestyle is a chief clue to success with Potter's in captivity. They're shy, need plenty of cover, and a dearth of "busy" tankmates. Most failures in the care of this Centropyge stem from a lack of this understanding... coupled with the trials of rough capture, tortuous holding, shipping and handling stress and damage through the "chain of custody" going from the wild through wholesalers, retailers to the consumer.
natebedwell06
New member
Inland Aquatics was partially built around a potters angel, because they are collected incorrectly, morgan lidster will tell you out of all the potters angels that are collected 99% are "juiced" meaning chemicals used to collect them and later on die from it, he has tried tons of times and will no longer order them because noone can truly catch them and collect them properly, and like said on a earlier post, just because someone "has a new potter's angel and its eating like a pig" we'll say, doesnt mean in 2 weeks it will be dead because either it was juiced, mishandled in shipping, post tramatic shipping stress and so forth.
philter4
New member
This is so NOT TRUE and it makes me mad!!! Potters are an endemic fish to the Hawaiian Islands and NO commercial divers use any sort of juice. Not only is it illegal in Hawaii to use any chemicals but there is no need. I dive with a commercial diver every trip I make over there (which is at least once a year and sometimes more) and they are collected in barrier nets, and since they live in large colonies they can collect 10 to 15 per pass with the net, there would be no reason to collect them one at a time with a drug that costs money for an animal that is so simple to just herd into the net.
I don't know why the success rate is sometimes not so high, maybe they can't handle shipping or the diet is problematic in captivity, I'm not sure but I have kept them for years and have never lost one to an unknown cause. The last ones I had were a pair that lived in my soft coral reef for several years until a storm knocked power out at the house for over a week, killing everything in both of my tanks. I have had this happen from hurricanes while living in Florida in the past but didn't lose everything, this time I was living in the mountains near Lake Tahoe in California and I couldn't keep the temps up from the winter storm.
philter4
New member
OK then lets say (which I don't believe and have never seen because of the penalties there for collecting with drugs) that someone decides they do want to use a drug to collect potters. The going price for a diver to sell to a wholesaler is under $5 per fish, quinaldine (the drug people use when they "juice" fish) is not just found at any store, you have to import it to the island, which leaves a paper trail, it is also expensive so that adds to the cost of the collector. Besides that you can only collect one at a time when you use drugs so now the fish has cost you more money to collect and more importantly more time (which you don't have underwater, especially if you are doing multiple dives a day) so you collect less of them each trip. Unless you are collecting for some reason I can't think of, why would you take profit away and collect less of them?
Besides if 99% are "juiced" then how is DD the best place to get them? You can't visually tell a drug caught fish from one that is net caught and many times drug caught fish tend to eat quicker and more vigorously then non drug caught because the drugs tend to damage their kidneys and intestines causing them to starve even though they eat and eat so it appears that they have a healthy appetite while in fact they are starving because they can't get the nutrition from the food they eat.
natebedwell06
New member
oh but it is true, morgan has been in the business for years, and is probably the best saltwater person there is out there, if you think it is bs, then you should give him a call and i bet you will reconsider your point of view on potters angels, he build a 50,000 gallon saltwater fish store pretty much around that fish, he knows what he is talking about
philter4
New member
I am not trying to hijack the post or argue with you but I have been going to Hawaii and collecting with the commercial divers for more then 10 years and I have never seen or even heard of someone using drugs to collect there. I don't know Morgan and maybe he just doesn't know or was talking about fish being imported (there are still places where fish are drug caught regularly) but on the islands it just isn't a fact that they are commonly collected with drugs. Again, just looking at it from a logical point of view, why would the collect potters with drugs and not the other species? If all of the Hawaiian fish were drug caught why is it that potters have a bad reputation for survival but the more difficult species to collect like the eels and wrasses have an almost perfect survival rate? With the high price and difficulty of collecting certain fish why would you use an expensive drug to collect a common "cheap" fish and not a difficult expensive fish? I am curious what you think about these questions because as a diver trying to make a living I would do everything I could to only collect expensive fish if I could guarantee myself 100% success if I had a drug to use.
natebedwell06
New member
im with you, im not saying they are all drugged, we only buy from places that we know collect correctly, which there is still people who do correctly collect fish, BUT, he said that the potters angels are drugged to be caught a lot of the time, but as you say, the guy you go with obviously collects them correctly and i believe that and they probably have a good survival rate, but there is still a vast majority that are drugged, sent to wholesalers, then die eventually because of that exact reason, but like I said I agree that not all are, because Im taking your experience and agreeing that there are still collectors out there that do collect correctly
Mark
Premium Member
I think Potters are like the dwarf version of Regal Angels. They are a little trickier to adapt, but do well if you work at it. Both my Regal and Potters(the only two angels in my tank currently) took a long time to wean onto frozen and dry food. Nori and Clams helped the transition.
As for the mystery of seeing a potters thrive for a year, and then croak? My theory is two things: temperature, stress, and grazing surface area. I think potters do not like high temperature tanks long term. I think they do better in the lower to mid 70's. Regarding stress, I don't think they handle stress well long term. In addition to avoiding bullying from other fish, I think they do better in larger tanks with less territorial disputes. Being the bully is stressful too sometimes.
It's amazing how much tank size can change the disposition of an Emperor or Cherub angel. I think it's a more subtle effect with Centropyge potteri. Lastly, a larger tank allows more surface area to graze. No matter how varied your diet for them is, I think they need to graze. But I'm pretty lazy about feeding my fish a varied diet, so they get pellets 90% of the time.
I have no proof or evidence to back these ideas up, but my potters has been with me for several years now.
]
As for the mystery of seeing a potters thrive for a year, and then croak? My theory is two things: temperature, stress, and grazing surface area. I think potters do not like high temperature tanks long term. I think they do better in the lower to mid 70's. Regarding stress, I don't think they handle stress well long term. In addition to avoiding bullying from other fish, I think they do better in larger tanks with less territorial disputes. Being the bully is stressful too sometimes.
It's amazing how much tank size can change the disposition of an Emperor or Cherub angel. I think it's a more subtle effect with Centropyge potteri. Lastly, a larger tank allows more surface area to graze. No matter how varied your diet for them is, I think they need to graze. But I'm pretty lazy about feeding my fish a varied diet, so they get pellets 90% of the time. I have no proof or evidence to back these ideas up, but my potters has been with me for several years now.
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BANDIT ANGEL
New member
Potters can be hard to train them on prepared food sometimes and the drug used during the collection will harm the fish's organs just like many other pygmy angels. Here is a little tip I commonly use in choosing Centropyge. fish. Look at the lips of the fish when it's in the LFS and is the lips look white that means the fish is at death's doors. Also,look for fish swimming normally,don't buy fish that swim upright or downwards,these fish often have swimming bladder issues.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
duplicate, sorry.
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MrTuskfish
Team RC
If the "vast majority" were "juiced' (meaning cyanide collected); what wholesaler would buy them? If this were the case with Hawaiian fish, like it is with some 3rd world collectors, it would be common knowledge. Your expert, who says ''99% are juiced", is just plain wrong this time. Throwing around figures like that in a small conversation is one thing; putting them out for general consumption is another. Bob Fenner (arguably the most respected author/expert in the hobby) has a great site: wetwebmedia.com. Check his site for info about Hawaiian fish and cyanide. I think its safe to say that 99% of Potters Angels are cyanide free.
Mark's comment, above, about temp stress is right on the mark, IMO.
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natebedwell06
New member
you know what, ill just leave the conversation here, i wish you could talk to morgan personally, since he has been doing this for 20 years
they just explained that Hawaiian fish are not juiced, you don't believe that?
Just because DD has QT'd a fish, does NOT mean it will survive...Potters will often 'appear' to be eating and doing well...and then just die!
If your guy is an expert, then it appears that YOU misunderstood, what he was saying.
BTW, I've been doing this for almost 40 years
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