praziquantel in a reef?

[ostrow]

I have an ich outbreak in my reef, and removing the fish just is not practical: no QT of sufficient size to house all the fish and taking apart the tank I fear would be even more stressful to them, of course removal is impossible without taking out the rockwork.

My question is, first will praziquantel (PraziPro) have any positive effect vs. ich and if so, is it safe to add to the reef?

My hunch is yes to the first and no to the second, but can't find an answer in searching. Hikari says it is good for marine environment, but do they mean FOWLR or a reef?

 

[SAT]

Praziquantel is useful as a dewormer, but I've never heard of anyone using it for Ich. If you want to use your animals as guinea pigs, be my guest. I don't think it's a good medication to use in a reef tank (but then, I don't think any medication should be used in a reef tank).

If you're looknig for information on Ich, here's some good reading:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282934

 

[SAT]

Is this for the black ich (turbellarians) you mentioned in another thread? Praziquantel isn't recognized as a treatment for that either, but it's more likely to work on turbellarians than regular ich (Cryptocaryon).

 

[ostrow]

Well, I don't know what the dark markings are on the fish but yesterday afternoon "normal" ich was quite evident when it was not before. I have been soaking food in garlic and selcon. I am not sure what has sent the fish south, but they have been getting worse despite the soaking of the food.

The research I have done indicates praziquantel is widely recognized as effective against turbellarians. But I've seen no indication about regular ich.

I agree, medicating a reef at all is not at all appealing. But I need to do something for the fish that are in there and sick. Sigh.

 

[SAT]

Yes, you're right, some authors recommend praziquantel for turbellarians.

There comes a point where you basically just have to bite the bullet and get them out of there. Yes, I know that will probably make a mess of your reef tank, but I don't know of any reliable cure for either disease that you can safely apply in place.

You should take a look at Stephen Pro's latest article on garlic. My own experience using it to treat Ich indicated it had no effect.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

 

[ostrow]

Yeah, I know about the garlic. I think it may have some benefit to strengthening an immune system. But I don't anticipate it will have healing qualities. I doubt it will do harm though. Probably the vitamins in the selcon are more beneficial.

If I could get the fish out I would. Problem is, I don't have the means to QT all of my fish. And I really don't have a way to remove everything to get the fish out ... and that is the only way I know of to get the fish out.

 

[Puffer Queen]

I would never dose any medication in my main display tank. If QT/hospital tank is not a viable option, then your only safe option would be to try & boost the fishes' immunity system & hope they can naturally overcome the infection. Beta glucan is an immune stimulant that has not shown any adverse effects in the aquarium.

Keep in mind there will still be parasites in the tank & the next stressful event, new fish additon, etc can & usually does cause another outbreak.

Hyposalinity is the only safe non chemical way to get rid of marine ich. Could you remove the rock & corals to a QT & use hyposalinity on the main display tank for a minimum of 4-8 weeks?

Best of luck.
Kelly

 

[ostrow]

Thanks for the Beta Glucan idea. I think I may try that. I have also set up my system to add a uv in the future. That future may be now, all things considered.

2.5 yrs of reefkeeping, this is the first time I've seen ick in my tank. My fish are eating, so I am hopeful. Maybe this can help them fight off secondary infection before it happens, and if I add the UV that can reduce the presence of the parasite in the tank. I do have cleaners in there as well.

Thanks again.

 

[ostrow]

Puffer Queen:

I managed to find 200mg capsules. How much of that would you mix for a single feeding? The place I went to had 3mg, 10mg, 100mg and 200mg capsules but a different brand than the one you had linked to on another thread. I got the 200s figuring I could open them and mix some in. My hunch is maybe 1/3 or less of the amount in a capsule for a feeding. I know it's all flying by the seat of my pants and this is all sort of hit or miss but since you have experience with the stuff I figured I'd ask.

Thanks so much.

 

[Puffer Queen]

Terry B's article gives a dose for beta glucan:

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/beta_glucan_biological_defense_modulator.html

I would not get overly concerned about administering the precise/exact dose as overdosing does not increase the benefits nor does it have adverse effects....other than costing you more money.

Best of luck.

Kelly

 

[Rondelet]

Praziquantel will have no effect on Cryptocaryon and will essentially be a waste of money. One med that is effective against Cryptocaryon is Metronidazole, which can be found in pet shops in various forms. A standard dose would be 1% of feed for 5 days, although you may have to adjust accordingly and read up for optimum dose rates/treatment regimens. This may be silly question, but do you have a cleaner shrimp in you tank? They are probably the best preventative maintenance money can buy if you want to avoid the use of chemotherapeutants. The one I have has done an amazing job - and is really neat to watch in action!

 

[ostrow]

I have 2 cleaners. They tried and failed to save the Atl. Blue Tang. The Royal Gramma seems not to go near them.

I've been using the 5-nitramidazole but will switch to metronidazole today. I am thinking of the powder and adding it to a gel -- adding to flake won't get it into the food, right?

There is also this gel-tek px, which has both metronidazole and praziquantel in it. But I'd rather control the amount I think.

Thanks though, I will report. With the ABT out, only the basslet has any signs of ich. Hopefully this will help.

 

[Rondelet]

If you can get powder and add it to a gel that would be the best route. In addition to controlling the dose (very important) you can add other things that would encourage your fish to eat it (i.e. bits of mussel of squid) and boost the immune system (i.e. vitamins). You could add it to flakes, but would have to "top coat" it with oil, or some other liquid binder. Some people have posted success with this approach, but I would think that it would be very messy and inaccuate. Also, metronidazole does have some antimicrobial properties so it's best to limit as much as possible how much gets into your system.

Good luck with and keep lots of detailed notes! I would be very interested to hear how it goes.

 

[ostrow]

Thanks. the more I read the more I think that Gel-Tek stuff won't work at all for this purpose.

I am confused on dosing. Everything you read gives a different amount. I'll post results. I'll just follow directions on whichever Metronidazole product I buy, or try to split the difference between the various recommendations. One link even said it can't be overdosed, which I find unlikely...

Though, with the ABT gone and only one remaining fish showing or having shown any symptoms this may be more a preventative thing now. We'll see.

Thanks again.

 

[ostrow]

Rondelet:

Since you list yourself as a fish biologist, something doesn't make sense to me. How does putting the medicine in food combat an external parasite that is a free-swimmer in its vulnerable stage?

Unless the parasite somehow consumes the medication, dies, and falls off while attached to the fish, who has already consumed and processed it, I don't see how it can have an effect this way.

Would it not be more effective to add the metronidazole directly to the water? But then, will it have any effect that way?

 

[Rondelet]

ostrow:

A very interesting question!

Metronidazole is a very small molecule that readily permeates all tissues by simple diffusion. I'm not familiar with any pharmacokinetic studies in fish, but suspect that therapeutic amounts of the drug accumulates in the skin and mucous tissues where it is absorbed by incoming theronts that come into contact with it. Same thing happens during the immune response: immobilizing antigens bind to the surface of the parasite as they attempt to settle on the fish. Not sure if it can penetrate trophont cysts, or if it affects trophonts that are present (i.e. encysted) before treatment is started.. The drug itself works by being metabolized and the metabolic products bind to intracellular macromolecules disrupting cellular activity in sensitive protozoans and anaerobic bacteria.

The compound can also be used against tomites by adding to the water - which is commonly recommended, but I would be concerned over possible effects on your system, and in particular anaerobic bacteria in your sand bed or live rock. Also, you need to change your water between treatments. However, this is very common and effective way of using metronidazole for the treatment of Hexamita and Spironucleus in FW systems.

Dose rates with oral chemotherapeutants is always tricky. However, metronidazole has a very wide therapeutic margin (in humans at least!), so your fish should be safe from being overdosed. Try a rate of 2 mg (active drug) per g of food for 5 to 10 days, closely watching your fish. If you do decide to try adding to the water, the dose rate would be 6 mg/L every 3-5 days for 3 treatments.

Reference regarding oral efficacy are cited in Herwig, 1979 (Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Use in the Treatment of Fish Diseases) and Lewbart 1998 (Self-Assessment Colour Review of Ornamental Fish).

Let us know how it goes.

 

[ostrow]

Excellent information there! Thanks! I will use the gel from Seachem and also add the Beta Glucan and garlic, tossing in some of Rod Buehler's frozen treats.

But the metronidazole and the gel are on order, so there will be a delay before I start. I'll report when it gets going...

Thanks again!

 

[ostrow]

While I was waiting for my Metronidazole and Focus to arrive I found this Gel-Tek stuff. Has metro in it, and prazi. The Gel-Tek comes in multiple varieties, I got the anti-parasite one. One thing I can say is, the fish go NUTS for it. But it pretty much dissolves right away in the water so I am not sure all are geting any. The ones that get it when it beads up really love it.

Then I got the other stuff. I thought the Seachem focus was a gel. It isn't. It is sort of little beads. The instructions say it binds the medicine to food. Not at ALL clear to me how.

I tried mixing the metro with the focus and then adding water and flake. Bad idea. Tossed that.

Then added both to frozen food and let it thaw. Still didn't see how the medicine was going to attach to the food.

Finally gave up on that route and did half a dose of metro in the food and added several drops of the Gel-Tek. Now that helped form a nice goop and things did seem to dissolve ok. Mixed in a little flake for good measure. Added to the tank. Not sure the metro powder fully adhered to the food, but the fish went nuts, all got food and I'm fairly sure all got some metro too. Have fed them 3x so far with this concoction. Will continue to work on it.

 

[Rondelet]

Ostrow, thanks for the update. Yes, preparing medicated fish and getting oral dosing correct is a challenge.

I'm not sure about Seachem "Focus". This product contains nitrofurantoin which is not the same as metronidazole. You need to check the label to confirm what you're using. Nitrofurantoin is a broad spectrum antimicrobial, and probably not effective against Cryptocaryon. More importantly, however, it is not very effective in seawater due to the relatively high pH. I'm not sure about Seachem's polymer claim - that it help's bind other medications and prevents diffusion (seems a little odd IMO). This may help uptake in fish once eaten - but it's an odd choice of an active for bacterial infections. It might work, but the truth is I've never used it so I can't really comment. I use Seachem's "Aquazole" - now sold as "Metronidazole". Each measure of Aquazole/Metronidazole contains 100 mg of metronidzole so dose rates are easy to figure out. I find the best way to prepare medicated feed is to add it to a mix of ingredients in blender then adding a little gelatin and freezing it.

It's likely that some of both (Focus and Gel-Tek) is getting eating when it has been added to your frozen food, however, it's just as likely that some of this is getting solubilized. Because nitrofurantoin is not very effective in seawater, it should be OK. However, the combination of both metronidazole and nitrofurantoin in your system has the potential to upset your biological filtration. As a precaution, you should increase monitoring for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and be prepared for a spike.

 

[ostrow]

Thanks. I am using both Metro and Focus as per Seachem's instructions. There are a few threads on RC about this. But I wonder about the claims on Focus as well.

Among their claims is no effect on bio filtration. Again, one wonders how. But others' threads seem promising... esp on crypto.