Preparing to build large rock display for 180 tank.

CrayolaViolence

New member
I am starting the prep work on the rock display for my 180. Some of the rock that I am building structures with will be dry, but live active rock will also be added after the water is in the tank. The question I have is this. I would like to work on the rock display but I don't want to risk scratching or cracking the bottom of the glass while it's empty. Does anyone know if those 1/4 inch black rubber runner liners you can use in a hall way to keep people from tracking in dirt would be safe to use. These runners are solid, about 24 inches wide, very thin, has lines for texture. It would be perfect to put in the bottom of the tank, put the rock on, then substrate then of course fill and put in live rock. They sell the stuff at home depot I think.

It looks kind of like this except black. Although I guess clear would work too.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sterling...d=smooth+floor+your+choice+length+roll+runner
 
Whatever you put into your tank you want it to be food grade. It should be labeled HDPE. So I wouldn't risk it with this item. You can use eggcrate on the bottom to secure a structure. You can also use hdpe starboard to cover the bottom as well.
 
I've used lighting grid aka egg crate on the bottom of all my reef setups. The rocks lock into the grid which stabilizes the structures. Once everything is how I like it I add my sand and then fill with water. Simple and easy.
 
But doesn't the egg crate float? And how do you know the egg crate material (which is basically light diffuser they use at home depot) is food grade? Or are you buying something called "egg crate" and not using the light diffusers at home depot?
 
Okay, when I look up "egg crate" plastic all I get are light diffusers, none of which are food grade. Being hard plastic they would have less plasticizers in them that could leach into the water, but that's the only difference I can tell. Unless someone here has a source for food grade plastics, I'm not sure why the light diffuser would be considered food grade.
 
Does anyone have a source for plastics that have gone through the FDA process to be considered food grade? So far every search I have done for "egg crate" comes up as material used for light diffusers which has not undergone any kind of FDA requirements.
 
Whatever you put into your tank you want it to be food grade. It should be labeled HDPE. So I wouldn't risk it with this item. You can use eggcrate on the bottom to secure a structure. You can also use hdpe starboard to cover the bottom as well.

But not all HDPE is food grade. To be considered food grade it has to go through FDA testing. Egg crate material is made of polystyrene, the rubber runners are 100% Phthalate free PVC Vinyl Plastic 50% recycled PVC also phthalate free.

I'm just trying to understand what makes one safe the other not when neither are food grade? And why the egg crates would be accepted as food grade when they are clearly not marked or certified by the FDA as food grade.

Are the buckets we get sea salt in even tested and certified as food grade or are they just #2 HDPE and we are assuming they are safe (even though all HDPE are not food grad but all food grade are HDPE)? Also, from what I have read, polystyrene is considered not safe and a possible source of carcinogens.

If that's the case, all those "egg crates" people are using to put their frags on are listed as unsafe non food safe plastics that should not be used in or around food.
 
Also for what it's worth. HDPE products NOT marked specifically as food grade may have been treated with mold release agents that from what I understand are dangerous and can leach into the water.
 
Egg crate has been used in thousands of tanks without issue thats how we know its safe. I've never seen anyone use what you're wanting to use so I would advise against it. What are the other 50% recycled materials from? It's your tank though do what you wan't.

Starboard is food grade if you don't like the egg crate. Its basically a big sheet of cutting board.
 
Considering that oxygen is a carcinogen (oxygen free radicals cause cancer), saying something isn't food grade doesn't rule it out for use in a reef tank. It just means you have to look at the evidence for/against and weigh your options. In the case of polystyrene egg crate, the stuff has been running in my reef for 3 years on my latest system and probably another 2.5 on the tank before that. I had it in my 30g years ago and just recently put it in the 40B that I set up a little more than a year ago. So four separate systems with new egg crate each time with no ill effects. You also have stores using the same stuff in their setups for years on end and those are coral growers, not just retail outlets.

Oh, and while the stuff does try to float a little, I put my rocks on it and then bury it in sand at which point I no longer have to worry about it floating :lol:.

HTH,
 
I've used lighting grid aka egg crate on the bottom of all my reef setups. The rocks lock into the grid which stabilizes the structures. Once everything is how I like it I add my sand and then fill with water. Simple and easy.

Ditto. I have a few diggers and this keeps everything safe.
 
Egg crate has been used in thousands of tanks without issue thats how we know its safe. I've never seen anyone use what you're wanting to use so I would advise against it. What are the other 50% recycled materials from? It's your tank though do what you wan't.

Starboard is food grade if you don't like the egg crate. Its basically a big sheet of cutting board.

The other 50% is PVC also 100% phthalate free.

I get that egg crate has been used for years, but people also have tank crashes for unknown reasons, corals die, etc. There has never been a study done on the stuff and it's most certainly not FDA approved for food or NSF or USDA marked safe...

I'm just stating that food grade can't be the bar set by which we decide what to put in our tanks. We use Epoxy when when know long exposure to uncured epoxy can cause life threatening allergic reactions to it. Cured those chemicals become inert and completely safe. With styrene if any where on the egg crate there were to be a "bubble" of uncured chemicals it could be released in to the water and prove poisonous. However, those chemicals are not very water soluble so they would probably just get sucked into the skimmer.
 
Considering that oxygen is a carcinogen (oxygen free radicals cause cancer), saying something isn't food grade doesn't rule it out for use in a reef tank. It just means you have to look at the evidence for/against and weigh your options. In the case of polystyrene egg crate, the stuff has been running in my reef for 3 years on my latest system and probably another 2.5 on the tank before that. I had it in my 30g years ago and just recently put it in the 40B that I set up a little more than a year ago. So four separate systems with new egg crate each time with no ill effects. You also have stores using the same stuff in their setups for years on end and those are coral growers, not just retail outlets.

Oh, and while the stuff does try to float a little, I put my rocks on it and then bury it in sand at which point I no longer have to worry about it floating :lol:.

HTH,


How do you turn the substrate when you have the egg crate down? And how do burrowing snails and such manage? I'm just wondering how I would be able to rake the ground if I needed to search for a bristle worm. And yes, I agree, there are hundreds and hundred of people having used and using the produce and have been for years with no ill affects yet we still have tank crashes for no reasons or other weird things that have no explanation. Not saying they are correlated at all, just saying, it hasn't been studied. And if long term use is the basis for which something is graded as safe, don't most, if not all use PVC in their tanks as well? As for oxygen causing cancer are you saying the molecule or the substances we release into the air that we breathe along with oxygen, because if you mean just oxygen, I'd have to argue that cause we'd burst into flames from pure oxygen (considering what we encounter daily in our environment) long before we'd get the chance to die of cancer.

My real concern with the egg crate is making the substrate sustainable to the other creatures wish would have their paths constantly blocked and they'd be unable to do their job.
 
Had anyone every used heavy grad pond liners on the bottom of a tank? Does EPDM break down under salt water exposure. It has a 30 year life expectancy under UV exposure.
 
What does "food safe" mean:rolleye1:? You seem to be hung up on a catch phrase that has little bearing with regard to materials within a reef tank. Our tanks have nothing to do with "food" and everything to do with complex biological systems with relatively delicate organisms housed in a closed environment. The FDA has nothing to do with our hobby and their "seal of approval" really doesn't mean much beyond human consumption. Lets look at a prime example: cyanoacrylate aka super glue. Yup, the glue used to attach corals to rock is considered to have a "mild toxicity" because the fumes can react with moisture when inhaled :lolspin:. Yet this same substance has been in use for decades, with great success actually. On the other side of the coin, copper is highly toxic to the organisms we are trying to maintain in our systems yet has been used in cooking pots and water pipes for centuries. What applies to humans does not directly transfer to reefs.

When it comes to tank crashes, you need to dig deeper:fish1:. I've yet to find one that had a root case in some infinitesimally low chemical concentration. It was either equipment failure (an exploded heater, a seized pump :mad2:), outside factors (power failure:rolleye1:), or most commonly it was gradual decline due to a lack of upkeep :uzi:. Folks get complacent and allow detritus to collect over time. Filter socks don't get changed as often, skimmers don't get maintained, pumps are fouled with algae, no water changes. All of these things can stress the balances in a tank until some "plague" takes over and then things snowball. Algae starts taking over, which kills the corals, which fuel the algae growth further. The clean up crew isn't replenished so there aren't as many algae consumers anymore. Eventually it all goes bad and the owner gives up the ghost on the whole thing. But the first action that caused it all? The human not doing the routine jobs. The materials in the tank had nothing to do with it :hammer:.

You say the use of egg crate hasn't been studied. I would disagree. Hundreds of reef systems over the last 20-30 years can't lie. The place I purchase my corals from is an aquaculture facility that's been running for the last decade. They literally GROW corals in tanks that have the entire bottom lined in egg crate. If there was something toxic coming off that plastic, I would think they would have seen problems by now. They are the only licences aquaculture facility in Maryland for corals and do research for pharmaceutical companies and government agencies. I'm pretty sure that what they consider safe to use in their setups is safe to use in ours. Just my opinion.

Turning the substrate is for FW, not SW, at least not manually. The critters in the sand do the work and they have no problems with a little obstruction in the lower reaches of the sand bed. It's no different from them hitting a buried rock, they just work around it. Bristle worms have a bad reputation considering how useful they are at removing detritus from a setup. You would do well to have a few in your tank. Having them take over means you have something else wrong and they are the symptom of the problem, not the cause.

One way to ensure the substrate is suitable is to get the proper size and have enough of it that the critters working the surface never see the egg crate. While I put down the grid and then the rocks, I have a 2"-6" sandbed across my entire tank. Even where the flow has carved out low spots, there is still a good covering of sand over the plastic. My snails and hermits never see what's at the very bottom of the tank. With a couple inches of sand, the bottom 1/4" doesn't do much.

Please try to realize that there are no absolutes in this hobby. There are things folks know will harm your system (copper being the big one) but there is a lot about the systems we keep that is hidden from us. Anecdotal evidence may not have much bearing in the science community but sometimes anecdotes have a basis in truth. On more than one occasion the reef community has shown the science community what works and what doesn't simple because we are willing to do some trial and error. The point is to figure out where the errors are, avoid them, and keep moving forward. There is no one right answer, only things that work for some folks more than others.

Good luck,
 
"RocketEngineer;24516982]What does "food safe" mean:rolleye1:? You seem to be hung up on a catch phrase that has little bearing with regard to materials within a reef tank. "

When you tell me not to use something because it's not "food grade" how am I supposed to take it? That's why I asked. I'm not hung up on anything. I'm trying to understand the logic behind what decides safe and unsafe in an aquarium. And while super glue and epoxy both have toxic chemicals in them, once cured, they are inert. This goes for many things. Again, that's why I asked.




"When it comes to tank crashes, you need to dig deeper:fish1:."

I agree. And while all those things are most likely a cause there are times when there doesn't seem to be a reason. That reason could just be captivity in general, who knows. A drop of bleach when someone mopped the floor. The list goes on.



"You say the use of egg crate hasn't been studied. I would disagree. Hundreds of reef systems over the last 20-30 years can't lie."

That's not a study. It's anecdotal evidence while having some validity, it's still not a controlled study.


"They are the only licences aquaculture facility in Maryland for corals and do research for pharmaceutical companies and government agencies. I'm pretty sure that what they consider safe to use in their setups is safe to use in ours. Just my opinion."

I'd love to know the name of the place, because I'd like to ask them about different substances used. And why egg crates (besides the holes in them) rather than other plastics etc. And again, we don't know if it causes problems because no one has ever looked for problems. Maybe the problems don't show up for months or years after exposure? Like anything, it's an unknown. And while yes, long time use in the hobby is great evidence, it's still not bullet proof. That's why I asked what dictates safe and unsafe. So far, what I'm hearing is, "if enough people have used it then it's safe."





Turning the substrate is for FW, not SW, at least not manually. The critters in the sand do the work and they have no problems with a little obstruction in the lower reaches of the sand bed. It's no different from them hitting a buried rock, they just work around it. Bristle worms have a bad reputation considering how useful they are at removing detritus from a setup. You would do well to have a few in your tank. Having them take over means you have something else wrong and they are the symptom of the problem, not the cause.

A few rock obstructions is very different than a grid obstruction. That's not a minor obstruction and they would only be able to turn whats above the grid. Ammonia and other gases could build up in those isolated pockets. And sure, small bristle worms aren't a problem. But having had corals eaten by them, I'd rather not have them in my tank. Also considering getting stung by them can cause nerve damage, again, I'd rather not have them in my tank. And there are other nasties as well such as hobbit worms. Never thought I would see one in real life, but found a 5 incher in my tank when breaking it down looking for a missing fish.


"One way to ensure the substrate is suitable is to get the proper size and have enough of it that the critters working the surface never see the egg crate. While I put down the grid and then the rocks, I have a 2"-6" sandbed across my entire tank. Even where the flow has carved out low spots, there is still a good covering of sand over the plastic. My snails and hermits never see what's at the very bottom of the tank. With a couple inches of sand, the bottom 1/4" doesn't do much."

And yet I've been told the opposite as well. To not put down a sand bed that thick due to the build of of gasses that can cause ammonia spikes.



"Please try to realize that there are no absolutes in this hobby."


I totally agree. Which is why I questioned the statement food grade. If you don't literally mean, if it's not food grade don't use it, then don't use the statement in regards to how to judge what can be used in a tank. What would be helpful is a list of plastics that reef people consider safe. Right now I am looking at pond liners, which come in a variety of plastics, pvc, and other polymers. Which, on the flip side those same plastics are used in other aspects of construction but not considered safe due to chemicals that aid making them flame retardant, anti fungal, etc but the chemicals are left out of the liner material to make it safe for fish.

And then again...what's safe for fish...isn't always safe for coral.
 
In my search for concrete information in regards to the use of polystyrene in the use of an aquarium in any fashion, I called over 20 different numbers, three major manufacturers, distributors even labs and the only thing any one was willing to say about the long term effects of the light grids in a saltwater application was this: Not recommended for use in that particular application.
I will continue to dig, because that's my nature. I have a friend who's a chemist and I will give him a call when he gets home in hopes he might know someone who is will to talk about the use of the plastic.
They do have polystyrene approved for water use but it differs from those used for the light grids. I'm not sure how much or why (no one would say), but that's all I can find. I think to be safe I am going to stick with a pond liner that will do the same thing as the PVC matting would, if not better because it's thicker and will provide more protection.
 
The "not recommended for aquarium use" statement is a cover their ...... so they don't get held liable. You will never get them to admit its acceptable. Ever. Not going to happen. There are tons of items in our systems that are "not recommended" but work perfectly fine. The reason they aren't recommended has nothing to due with their suitability and everything to due with lawyers:rolleyes:.

I'd love to know the name of the place, because I'd like to ask them about different substances used. And why egg crates (besides the holes in them) rather than other plastics etc. And again, we don't know if it causes problems because no one has ever looked for problems. Maybe the problems don't show up for months or years after exposure? Like anything, it's an unknown. And while yes, long time use in the hobby is great evidence, it's still not bullet proof. That's why I asked what dictates safe and unsafe. So far, what I'm hearing is, "if enough people have used it then it's safe."

Pacific East Aquaculture. Great place to shop if you ever get the opportunity. Egg crate is a)easy to find in box stores, b) comes in pieces that are large enough to cover the bottom of a tank easily, c) cheap, and d) much easier to cut to shape than solid plastics. We have no proof that it does cause problems. Folks have looked, but they aren't "scientists" they are "hobbyists". From what I'm reading, you are looking for an absolute that doesn't exist. Here is the best I've found:

Advanced Aquarist; said:
Eggcrate
If there was every a gift from the heavens to reef aquarists, it has to be eggcrate material. Intended for use as a parabolic reflector in fluorescent light panels, this material has seen an incredible number of applications in the aquarium hobby. The white plastic material is inert in seawater and therefore does not corrode or seem to leach any toxic materials into the water (the same is probably not true for the eggcrate with an applied reflective silver material). It is easily cut with a handsaw, jigsaw or linesman's pliers. Eggcrate is available at any hardware store in the lighting section.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/8/aafeature

One of the better sources of research papers I know of when it comes to the reef hobby.

A few rock obstructions is very different than a grid obstruction. That's not a minor obstruction and they would only be able to turn whats above the grid. Ammonia and other gases could build up in those isolated pockets. And sure, small bristle worms aren't a problem. But having had corals eaten by them, I'd rather not have them in my tank. Also considering getting stung by them can cause nerve damage, again, I'd rather not have them in my tank. And there are other nasties as well such as hobbit worms. Never thought I would see one in real life, but found a 5 incher in my tank when breaking it down looking for a missing fish.

To the small critters in the sand, the gird doesn't mean much. To a snail, its just something to work around. What's in the grid is a very small portion vs what's above the grid.

When it comes to concentrations in the sand, look up how a deep sand bed works. Sure, the deep levels have different water chemistry then whats in the water column of the tank but this is because different biological processes are happening in those locations. In my case, I use a 5g bucket full of sand to create a reduced oxygen region that eliminated my nitrate problem entirely. Biology, not technology.

And yet I've been told the opposite as well. To not put down a sand bed that thick due to the build of of gasses that can cause ammonia spikes.

The concern is actually hydrogen sulfide spikes. I've never found the proof of a problem but deep sand beds do have more sulfides present then in the tank. Left undisturbed and with enough agitation of the tank surface , any hydrogen sulfide that does make their way into the water will then evaporate into the air and never reaches harmful levels within the tank. I've only seen problems when someone disturbs a big area of deep sand, thus releasing everything at once. If you don't disturb it, deep sand has its uses.

Keep reading, researching, questioning. :beer:
 
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