Preventing Old Tank Syndrome

[Paul B]

I have read on a few forums that some tanks are having a problem with Old Tank Syndrome.
Old Tank Syndrome has no real scientific cause and is believed to be caused by a number of reasons, some of which are lack of maintenance, metal acumulation, compacted pores in rock, lack of bio diversity etc, but it generally means "Failure to Thrive".
Some times no matter what you do, the animals just seem to decline to where the hobbiest just gives up and takes up stamp collecting.
I have some experience with an old tank and I think I know the causes and the things that "Most" but not all people can do to prevent it.
Our tanks are taken care of by bacteria, not us. Bacteria do it all and we are just there to keep the bacteria happy.
I feel there are simple and cheap ways to keep the bacteria happy while not using all sorts of un-natural chemicals to remove substances that bacteria are willing to do for free.
But the bacteria need a little help to stay happy and healthy.
Nothing will last without maintenance so my ideas incorporate a little maintenance, but very little and only a few times a year.
I am sorry to say that if you run a DSB I don't think there is a way to prevent "OTS" for much more than ten years.
Ten years may seem like a long time if you are 20 years old, it is twice your age. But ten years is not even the lifespan of a hermit crab. it is a little less than half the age of most damsels and just twice the age of a seahorse, so ten years is just a blink of the eye for most of us.

A reef tank can last forever just as it does in the sea.
The sea is a little different than our captive reefs for a few reasons. Most of us use ASW. ASW is an aproximation of real seawater but unfortunately many people don't have access to the sea. ASW can work fine but natural is much better. NSW has every mineral on earth and near space incorporated in it and we are not certain if any of those trace elements are beneficial or detrimental, but our animals evolved in it so how bad can it be?
Besides NSW the sea has other things that are more difficult to mimic, one of them is volume. In the sea the vast majority of the water is to deep to grow algae so any nitrate produced has plenty of room to go to get diluted. The rest of the nitrate in the shallow water is processed by bacteria and algae. The reefs are loaded with algae, we just don't see it because of the hoards of tangs, urchins, snails, slugs, sea hares, chitens etc. That will not work in our tank because of that water volume thing.
On any rocky shore in the tropics you will see forests of algae. It grows at the water's edge because very few animals can live there. There are only snails and Sally Light foot crabs along with amphipods that can live there.
Algae is one of natures best nitrate processors and even if you don't see algae, the sea is loaded with phytoplankton, that is how the oxygen on this planet got here.
The other thing the sea has is typhoons. Typhoons and lightning.
I have been in a typhoon in the South Pacific and a Hurricane in the Caribbean. There is no way your turkey baster or Eheim filter can stir the water like a typhoon.:eek2:
If you dumped out your entire tank on a tile floor and put everything back into the tank 7 or 8 times, that would still not impact the corals as much as a typhoon in a shallow sea.
I have seen brain corals as large as my house, up side down. I have seen 40' sailboats 50' up on the side of a mountain surrounded by 8' seafans.
Try to move that boat with your turkey baster.
What I am trying to say is that our corals evolved with typhoons and they need it. Maybe not directly but that violence uncovers bare areas for corals to grow, it drags tiny invertabrates from hiding so they can be eaten, it causes bacteria from the land to mix with the bacteria in the sea, It opens pores and larger channels in rock to allow oxygen to penetrate giving rise to more bacteria. It does initially kill many corals, but from that devastation, new corals take up the space making for more diversity.:worried:
If it were not for these weather upheavels, the reefs would stagnate and be covered with detritus, the corals would take up all the available space and only the strongest would live forcing any other coral to die and most important, the bacteria will be reduced to just a few types and they would only live on the surfaces of the rock because the pores would be filled with detritus.
Thphoons also violently stir the water to such an extent that as it crashes on the rocks it is throw up into a fine mist where it is exposed to the abundance of ozone caused by the numerous lightning that continousely hits the water. Some of these lightning storms are so fierce that you can barely open your eyes from the flashes. It does get very violent.:uzi:

So that is my start to an Old Tank Syndrome thread. I will try to get into "my" ideas to prevent it when I have more time.
Feel free to post your ideas, criticisms or aprovals or just tell me to go away, as I am old and getting tired of typing. :smokin:

 

[rick12]

Paul, how often do you create a typhoon in your system?
R.

 

[Paul B]

I was going to get to that but at least twice a year. I don't have any schedules for anything but when the tank starts to look like it needs some rejuvination and I have the time, I take my diatom filter and put a restriction on the outlet hose, I use a plastic funnel looking thing that carnations come in, florists have them. I put that over the hose of the filter and it powerwashes the rock and gravel. The resulting detritus gets sucked up in the filter. I do this over the course of a few hours because as it settles, I do it again. You would be amazed at the amount of material comes out of the pores in live rock.
The fish seem to love it (except for pipefish, I think it clogs their gills and I lose them)
And the tank seems much healthier afterwards. I don't think my tank would have lasted five years if it were not for this practice.

 

[rick12]

So a good ole re-aqua scape can't heart things? I know that I use the baster once in awhile, but your saying this is not enough.
I was thinking that all the little critters and crabs etc would help to keep the rock pores open in such a small system.....Critters that pick, pick, pick?

 

[Paul B]

but your saying this is not enough.

No, not hardly.

I was thinking that all the little critters and crabs etc would help to keep the rock pores open in such a small system.....Critters that pick, pick, pick?

The critters will make it worse. In the rock are hoards of rock boring critters and bacteria, the bacteria dies and even though they are tiny, they leave residue.
Crabs are cute, but do nothing for pores in rock. Even their cast off shells adds to the gunk that clogs pores. These pores must be cleaned out to continue functioning as a substrait for bacteria. There is no getting around it.

 

[rhdoug]

Great thread, Paul. I have only a youngster tank (13 years) but I too like to stir things up frequently, as much as cranking up the vortechs to maximum and my puny turkey baster can do. Sometimes I use a hand-held powerhead when I really want to play storm god. I also stir up what little of the shallow sand bed I can reach every couple of weeks. The clarity of the water after things settle down is amazing, and nothing seems to get mad at me for doing it. In fact, when I get lazy about it I can tell, as things seem to get a bit "tired" looking, for lack of a better word. Glad to see someone else doing (mostly) the same thing.

 

[Paul B]

I have only a youngster tank (13 years) but I too like to stir things up frequently

Randy, thats why your tank has lasted so long. I doubt you will find an old tank that never had this procedure. Old is not 6 or 7 years.
You obviousely know what you are doing.
I have always done this and the more you can do it, the better.
I have a plan for the future where I want to make all of my rock suspended from above. Yes it is a little of a nightmare to design it but I have it designed and just need time to do it. Of course this is not necessary but I like to shake things up and experiment.
I will build a cement frame from DIY rock that will just be thin supports coated in cement, the same way I build my rock. I want to do this so I can raise the entire reef off the bottom at least a few inches so I can pass a specially built spray nozzel down there to stir up the substrait every month or so. Most of my reef is now supported off the bottom in a fashion similar to this.
I don't know when, or if I will get to this but I think it is an interesting idea.
Thats how important I feel it is to stir the substrait and clean the rocks.
Either way, cleaning the rock pores and substrait is important.
By cleaning the substrait I don't mean just removing detritus as I think that is benign but I feel I want to clear the channels so that oxygen can pass.

 

[Paul B]

Another aspect of preventing OTS IMO is to add bacterial biodiversity.
As I said not everyone lives near the sea but that is one of the criteria that I think is important. Not "living" by the sea (even though that is nice) but being able to collect or at least buy bacteria.
Ever since the onset of my tank I have been adding bacteria and creatures from the sea. I do this a few times a year by collecting mud or rocks on a muddy beach and dumping it in my tank. I know that will scare many people but this is what "I" do, if you do it differently start a thread called
"Don't do what Paul does because he is senile and doesn't know what he is doing and this will crash your tank"
So go ahead and start that thread. Other wise, go to a muddy beach and get some mud.
Yesterday I collected this bunch of barnacles. They won't live long in my reef due to lack of food but they are full of mud, pods and bacteria.
If you don't live near a muddy beach, meet someone on Facebook that lives near a beach and get them to mail you mud. You just need a handful.
I don't know what else to tell you how to get the stuff.
If you never add real "stuff" from the real ocean your bacteria will eventually become only a few types and those few types may not help much with what we are trying to acomplish in regard to processing wastes.
All available real estate in a tank will be covered in bacteria but is it the correct bacteria? I don't know but I don't think so. Adding rock from your LFS would help I would assume but that is expensive and we can't keep adding rock, eventually the tank will get filled.
I am not 100% positive that added bacteria is necessary but it is part of my theory. I am not the God of bacteria so I may be wrong but this is what "I" do and so far my reef has not got OTS.:wavehand:

Yesterday I added about a pound of these barnacles, just for the bacteria. They came from a muddy tide pool and were full of mud. They are also kind of interesting but I spend a small fortune trying to keep these things from growing on my boat.
Yes, I know my methods are wierd and you never heard of adding anything from a muddy beach. If you are looking for answers from the mainstream aquarists, you are reading the wrong forum.
It is what it is. :uhoh3:

 

[Spyderturbo007]

Excellent thread and something I would have never thought about. Now I'm kind of concerned about my sand bed. It's probably about 3" or so, which I don't think classifies as deep. You don't stir up the sand with your diatom filter, just the rock?

Do you happen to have any pictures of this device?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Part of the cure for my OTS has been to put a 5 micron filter sock inline and use a large powerhead to blow off everything in the tank. I have done this several (maybe 10-12) times over the last 2 months and things have certainly turned around. I was amazed that the crap (no pun?) that had accumulated over the last 7 years even with regular water changes, high flow and a 6' tall skimmer.

The process has now become a regular part of my monthly maintenance.

 

[Paul B]

You don't stir up the sand with your diatom filter, just the rock?

I don't have sand, just gravel. If your tank is not to old and if you are sure you don't have any hydrogen sulfide or black patches, I would stir it up (and remove an inch and a half of it) but thats just me.

I was amazed that the crap (no pun?) that had accumulated over the last 7 years even with regular water changes, high flow and a 6' tall skimmer.

Bean, you should see what acumulates in over 40 years. :fun5:
I would do it more often but when I have bluestriped pipefish I can't.
It is the most important thing that can be done for the health of a tank.
I only do it maybe twice a year but more would be better.
I am surprised that everyone doesn't do this. :sad1:

I use a diatom filter and am on my 5th or 6th one, they are not made very well. But any canister filter will work.

 

[srusso]

Hey Paul, I live in CT so the long island sound is the only easy access I have to the ocean. Any reason the stuff from the sound would be different then the stuff your getting in NY?

 

[Paul B]

The stuff I am getting in New York I am getting in the Sound. My boat is in the Sound in Port Washington just south west of you. I sometimes take my boat to Conn.

 

[srusso]

The stuff I am getting in New York I am getting in the Sound. My boat is in the Sound in Port Washington just south west of you. I sometimes take my boat to Conn.

Ok that's good news. So funny, when I started working with salt water tanks I was thinking about getting stuff from the sound, when I posted questions I got nothing but negative feed back...

I am going give it a try...

 

[srusso]

Do you feel it's necessary to dive for the stuff or the stuff off the coast seem to work also? I realize you are getting stuff from a tide pool so I am guessing at least some of it is from the coast! Lol

 

[jnareefer]

Does this mean that I redo my whole tank and do away with the DSB and plenum that I'm running for long term success. Also crank up my MP40's once a week to simulate storm surge or would it be best to get two MP60's and blow it out to create a tsunami.

 

[srusso]

Does this mean that I redo my whole tank and do away with the DSB and plenum that I'm running for long term success. Also crank up my MP40's once a week to simulate storm surge or would it be best to get two MP60's and blow it out to create a tsunami.

two MP60's will "blow out" my wallet with it!! :lolspin:

 

[Paul B]

when I posted questions I got nothing but negative feed back...

Get used to that, most people feel that your tank must be sterile.

Do you feel it's necessary to dive for the stuff or the stuff off the coast seem to work also? I realize you are getting stuff from a tide pool so I am guessing at least some of it is from the coast! Lol

I don't dive for any of the stuff I put in my tank, I get it all from the Sound, except the water which I usually get from the ocean but occasionally take it from the Sound.

Does this mean that I redo my whole tank and do away with the DSB and plenum that I'm running for long term success. Also crank up my MP40's once a week to simulate storm surge or would it be best to get two MP60's and blow it out to create a tsunami

Yes, but any way you stir up the bed is fine, as long as you don't stir up a DSB

 

[rick12]

Another aspect of preventing OTS IMO is to add bacterial biodiversity.
As I said not everyone lives near the sea but that is one of the criteria that I think is important. Not "living" by the sea (even though that is nice) but being able to collect or at least buy bacteria.
Ever since the onset of my tank I have been adding bacteria and creatures from the sea. I do this a few times a year by collecting mud or rocks on a muddy beach and dumping it in my tank. I know that will scare many people but this is what "I" do, if you do it differently start a thread called
"Don't do what Paul does because he is senile and doesn't know what he is doing and this will crash your tank"
So go ahead and start that thread. Other wise, go to a muddy beach and get some mud.
Yesterday I collected this bunch of barnacles. They won't live long in my reef due to lack of food but they are full of mud, pods and bacteria.
If you don't live near a muddy beach, meet someone on Facebook that lives near a beach and get them to mail you mud. You just need a handful.
I don't know what else to tell you how to get the stuff.
If you never add real "stuff" from the real ocean your bacteria will eventually become only a few types and those few types may not help much with what we are trying to acomplish in regard to processing wastes.
All available real estate in a tank will be covered in bacteria but is it the correct bacteria? I don't know but I don't think so. Adding rock from your LFS would help I would assume but that is expensive and we can't keep adding rock, eventually the tank will get filled.
I am not 100% positive that added bacteria is necessary but it is part of my theory. I am not the God of bacteria so I may be wrong but this is what "I" do and so far my reef has not got OTS.:wavehand:

Yesterday I added about a pound of these barnacles, just for the bacteria. They came from a muddy tide pool and were full of mud. They are also kind of interesting but I spend a small fortune trying to keep these things from growing on my boat.
Yes, I know my methods are wierd and you never heard of adding anything from a muddy beach. If you are looking for answers from the mainstream aquarists, you are reading the wrong forum.
It is what it is. :uhoh3:

Paul, these are cold water critters in warm water system? But this is what works for you?
R.

 

[unkel j]

Sometimes when I do water changes (not every time) I carefully pull out a few of the rocks and hold them in the bucket full of just siphoned out tank water. One at a time I hold them in my hand and in a left and right twisting motion I shake them violently as hard as I posably can. I don't always do this and yes I have done this to rocks with corals on them (nothing to fragile of course). I alternate rocks each time and vacume the ssb under them when I do. My tank is very young at only 3 years old but I can turn a bucket of clear water light brown by shaking rocks so I figure it must be good. I only do a few rocks at a time and only do this occasionaly so I don't loose too many pods and things. I feel like I am washing the inside of the rocks when I do this. I've never seen any ill affects. I live in AZ so I can't access the ocean very easily but have been considering an anual swap of a few rocks with new premium ones from the lfs to keep up on the biodiversity.