Proactively Treating During Quarantine

[snorvich]

Proactively Treating During Quarantine

There are differing opinions as to whether one should treat proactively during quarantine. What is NOT debatable is whether to quarantine; quite simply it is imperative if you want to be successful in this hobby.

I believe that all fish should be treated for flukes and intestinal worms during the quarantine process, ideally at the beginning. It is easy and effective so why not do it?

I personally prefer 9 weeks of observation followed by treatment only if necessary. Others, who I respect greatly, proactively treat with copper as that covers both Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and oodinium (velvet). I can easily see their perspective. It is most critical to keep copper at a therapeutic level as tested nightly before lights go off, or ideally twice per day.

However proactively treating with hyposalinity has no effect on oodinium (velvet) and due to autotop off considerations is more difficult to manage. Remember you must have a properly calibrated refractometer for this method. I have difficulty recommending this option as it does not cover the velvet possibility.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I'm still trying to formulate my new QT regimen, but I know it will involve copper & Prazi from here on in. The only exception would be copper for a Mandarin (or similar). If a Dwarf Angel can't handle the copper, then oh well, I'll keep trying until I get one that can. IMO hypo is too much of a PITA and has too many variables. I'll concentrate on just getting my copper level right and testing/retesting to ensure it stays right.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll say again what my boss used as his QT regimen back when I did aquarium maintenance. As soon as he got his fish in from the airport he would immediately treat them with Coppersafe and the initial dosage of Maracyn 1 & 2. He didn't wait for them to start eating or anything... He just did it. When I first saw this I thought he was crazy. But after seeing how he would only lose maybe 3 or 4 fish per shipment (he would order $3-4k at a time), and how after 5-6 weeks he would put them in his clients' tanks and they lived forever, I became a believer. In the 2+ years I worked for him not once did I ever see Ich in any of his 60+ clients' tanks. However, I also strongly believe that a lot of his success was due to him only using Quality Marine as his wholesaler.

 

[sandwi54]

I always proactively treat with cupramine and prazipro. To me, it's just necessary and not an option. Many hobbyists think it's not acceptable to put fish through unnecessary treatment if disease is not spotted. However, I think treatments are less stressful than a fish suffering from a disease we don't see (such as gill infection from ich).

 

[snorvich]

I always proactively treat with cupramine and prazipro. To me, it's just necessary and not an option. Many hobbyists think it's not acceptable to put fish through unnecessary treatment if disease is not spotted. However, I think treatments are less stressful than a fish suffering from a disease we don't see (such as gill infection from ich).

I have no disagreement. I only get twitchy if someone uses hypo proactively. The odds of doing it properly are low and it ignores the oodinium outcome which is exceptionally fatalistic.

 

[sandwi54]

I have no disagreement. I only get twitchy if someone uses hypo proactively. The odds of doing it properly are low and it ignores the oodinium outcome which is exceptionally fatalistic.

I agree. I'm beginning to drift away from hypo even for species sensitive to copper. I have done hypo successfully a few times in the past but it's truly a lot of work and the difficulty involved may be too much for new hobbyists.

Having successfully treated copper-sensitive species (puffers, flame angels, etc) with cupramine (when dosage is ramped up slowly) without any issues, I now wholeheartedly recommend prophylactic treatment with cupramine. It's so much easier than hypo. Testing the copper concentration once or twice a day is a lot less work than monitoring/buffering pH and salinity.

 

[enjetek]

I agree. I'm beginning to drift away from hypo even for species sensitive to copper. I have done hypo successfully a few times in the past but it's truly a lot of work and the difficulty involved may be too much for new hobbyists.

Having successfully treated copper-sensitive species (puffers, flame angels, etc) with cupramine (when dosage is ramped up slowly) without any issues, I now wholeheartedly recommend prophylactic treatment with cupramine. It's so much easier than hypo. Testing the copper concentration once or twice a day is a lot less work than monitoring/buffering pH and salinity.

This is all true. I have also used cupramine on supposed copper sensitive fish (angels, puffers, etc) and there have been no issues. Use the seachem test kit for testing the copper level along with prazi pro and you will never have to worry about pulling all your fish out to treat problems that could have been prevented.

 

[jamesbaur13]

As some of you know I am new, but I've spent a good amount of time researching what method would work for me.

With being a novice I try to keep it as simple as possible. For that reason hypo was a no no for me. Copper is much more simple, but the dosage has to be right and maintained for it to be effective... not too complicated, but it has some pitfalls. As some mentioned, depending on the species you need to mess with the dosages. Also, I am always fearful of doing more harm then good. Knowing my luck I'd add just the wrong thing and wipe my fish due to some unknown drug interaction.

I am now doing tank transfer while simultaneously treating with prazi-pro. Why? It's easy and it covers a good number of ailments all at once. It is more labor intensive, but for me it works. I'm not saying everyone should do tank transfer, but I feel it is the most overlooked of the 3 and deserves more consideration.


On a side note...

One thing I feel that is important and needs to be stressed to all people who use copper... if you are not proactively using copper (as soon as your fish hits the water in your quarantine tank) then you should be doing one tank transfer at the end of the copper treatment. Reason being, if ich was living in the fish's gills and was not visible and it was allowed to drop off and encyst it has the potential to re-infect the fish because the ich is immune to copper during this stage. Most treatments in copper don't go longer than a couple weeks, being that the encysted period extends much beyond that... it can be a problem. The tank transfer negates the chance the encysted ich have to re-infect.

 

[snorvich]

As some of you know I am new, but I've spent a good amount of time researching what method would work for me.

With being a novice I try to keep it as simple as possible. For that reason hypo was a no no for me. Copper is much more simple, but the dosage has to be right and maintained for it to be effective... not too complicated, but it has some pitfalls. As some mentioned, depending on the species you need to mess with the dosages. Also, I am always fearful of doing more harm then good. Knowing my luck I'd add just the wrong thing and wipe my fish due to some unknown drug interaction.

I am now doing tank transfer while simultaneously treating with prazi-pro. Why? It's easy and it covers a good number of ailments all at once. It is more labor intensive, but for me it works. I'm not saying everyone should do tank transfer, but I feel it is the most overlooked of the 3 and deserves more consideration.


On a side note...

One thing I feel that is important and needs to be stressed to all people who use copper... if you are not proactively using copper (as soon as your fish hits the water in your quarantine tank) then you should be doing one tank transfer at the end of the copper treatment. Reason being, if ich was living in the fish's gills and was not visible and it was allowed to drop off and encyst it has the potential to re-infect the fish because the ich is immune to copper during this stage. Most treatments in copper don't go longer than a couple weeks, being that the encysted period extends much beyond that... it can be a problem. The tank transfer negates the chance the encysted ich have to re-infect.

Copper should be four weeks followed by 4 weeks of observation. Tank transfer is a great way to treat.

 

[Reefing Newbie]

Do you do 4 week observation after copper if proactively treating? I am going to be proactivley treating because of ick and velvet with copper. Will be doing prazi before hand for two weeks before copper and really make sure the fish eat very well. I really just want to avoid any disease I can and keep it from entering the DT if possible.

 

[alprazo]

For about two years now, I have been treating all new fish with a combination of praziquantil and chloroquine; together. I have not had any issues with Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium since starting this protocol.

 

[joaovieira]

Proactively Treating During Quarantine

There are differing opinions as to whether one should treat proactively during quarantine. What is NOT debatable is whether to quarantine; quite simply it is imperative if you want to be successful in this hobby.

I believe that all fish should be treated for flukes and intestinal worms during the quarantine process, ideally at the beginning. It is easy and effective so why not do it?

I personally prefer 9 weeks of observation followed by treatment only if necessary. Others, who I respect greatly, proactively treat with copper as that covers both Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and oodinium (velvet). I can easily see their perspective. It is most critical to keep copper at a therapeutic level as tested nightly before lights go off, or ideally twice per day.

However proactively treating with hyposalinity has no effect on oodinium (velvet) and due to autotop off considerations is more difficult to manage. Remember you must have a properly calibrated refractometer for this method. I have difficulty recommending this option as it does not cover the velvet possibility.

So, the recommended period of observation in QT is now 9 weeks ?. Is it known how better is it compared to the 6 weeks usually advised ? How do treat for flukes and intestinal worms ? Thanks.

 

[alprazo]

Praziquantil will cover most monogenia and some "worms". I have also used febendazole and levamisole with mixed results.

 

[snorvich]

Praziquantil will cover most monogenia and some "worms". I have also used febendazole and levamisole with mixed results.

I can certainly agree with Praziquantil which I use on my salt water tanks and pond. I personally am not as confident about febendazole and levamisole but others use it successfully.

 

[snorvich]

There is a timing issue with proactive treatment. Four weeks of copper at therapeutic dosage gives you a large leg up on oodinium and a leg up on cryptocaryon irritans. But the nature of ich is such that you want to be sure to give it a full exposure. If copper were not bad for fish, I would recommend the full 8-9 weeks of proactive treatment. But limiting it to four weeks provides benefit but it still needs additional observation since not all parasites are synchronized in dropping off and procreating.

 

[Reefing Newbie]

Would it work to do 1 round of Prazi, 4 weeks copper(therapeutic dosage), 1 round of prazi, then another 4 weeks of copper work better? Otherwise do a normal copper treatment after 2 rounds of prazi and making sure the fish are eating well. Then do observation. Just trying to get down a very good idea of how my proactive treatment will work before I actually get any fish and do it. Having them die because of bad dosing or methods would be heartbreaking(and wallet breaking).

 

[rinconmike]

From start to finish in a 55 gallon QT, I have been doing 1 or 2 weeks of observation, then the 2 weeks of Quinine Sulfate, then I do two weeks of prazi pro (two one week treatments with 25% water change in between), then a week or 2 with carbon.

I have been using Quinine Sulfate instead of cupramine for my last few fish. I have been doing two 7 day treatments in the 55 gallon QT (1.25 teaspoons) with a 25% water change in between. There are different directions out there. some say daily treatments with 25% water changes, some say once. I asked National Fish Pharm and they said one 7 day treatment is all that is needed.

So far i have been lucky with the above. The fish did not show signs of ich or anything so maybe the QS worked because there was nothing there to begin with.

I like the QS over cupramine because there is no testing. This may be a good thing or not. Some say do not put anything in your tank you cannot test for.

Also, I have used cupramine with my porc puffer in my 150 display a couple years ago and he seemed fine. However, about a year ago I tried cupramine with a Koran Angel (around 4") and I think it killed it. My measurements showed around a .25 level. I always found the kits (seachem, Salifert, Red Sea) hard to read with too much guess so I guess it could have been higher.

 

[snorvich]

From start to finish in a 55 gallon QT, I have been doing 1 or 2 weeks of observation, then the 2 weeks of Quinine Sulfate, then I do two weeks of prazi pro (two one week treatments with 25% water change in between), then a week or 2 with carbon.

I am a proponent of treating all fish with prazipro.

I have been using Quinine Sulfate instead of cupramine for my last few fish. I have been doing two 7 day treatments in the 55 gallon QT (1.25 teaspoons) with a 25% water change in between. There are different directions out there. some say daily treatments with 25% water changes, some say once. I asked National Fish Pharm and they said one 7 day treatment is all that is needed.

So far i have been lucky with the above. The fish did not show signs of ich or anything so maybe the QS worked because there was nothing there to begin with.

I like the QS over cupramine because there is no testing. This may be a good thing or not. Some say do not put anything in your tank you cannot test for.

And I am one. If you do not know your medications level, you are doing an uncontrolled treatment

Also, I have used cupramine with my porc puffer in my 150 display a couple years ago and he seemed fine. However, about a year ago I tried cupramine with a Koran Angel (around 4") and I think it killed it. My measurements showed around a .25 level. I always found the kits (seachem, Salifert, Red Sea) hard to read with too much guess so I guess it could have been higher.

Yes, all test kits are not easy to read, at least for me. If you are using cupramine, using seachem's test kit is recommended

I never comment on other sources of advice as it is second hand and may not be accurately portrayed. From Bob Fenner:

[Start of Bob Fenner published quote, magenta comments are mine]


"The Real Deal: Treating Fishes in Isolation, Allowing the Main System to "Go Fallow"

There are no "reef-safe" and effective treatments for crypt. NONE. Curing infested fishes involves separating them from non-fish livestock and treating them in that other system (or alternatively moving the non-fish livestock). Infested systems can be made "crypt-free" or better "crypt-virulence-reduced" by having them kept free of fish hosts for several (4 or more (I recommend 9 weeks)) weeks without fishes. If practical, elevating temperatures and possibly lowering specific gravity (to the tolerance of other non-fish livestock) can be employed to "speed up" the loss of virulence of the parasites. In practical terms we are generally talking the low to mid 80's F. and 1.017-1.018... with these values adjusted over days time. Care must be exercised in not possibly transmitting disease organisms from the quarantine system... on nets, containers, hands... anything wet, and drying, otherwise sterilizing quarantine tanks and gear between uses.

About Ultraviolet Sterilizers:

UV's cannot effect an actual "cure", though they do seem to do so in some cases where slight improvement in the overall system water quality may tip the balance between health/disease in the fishes side. Otherwise UV use can significantly reduce the number of free-swimming tomites. An initially improved situation is often perceived in initial infestations with a synchronized population of adults cycling off their hosts (every 3 to 7 days)... only to resurface in great numbers due to the confines of captivity. Note, it will not rid your system of ich because not all parasites pass through the UV unit. Also speed of flow and size of UV must be matched"

[End of Bob Fenner published quote]

Quinine Sulfate is not a reliable cure for ich, although I initially had hopes it would be.

 

[CT Reefer]

Clownfish

Clownfish

Do any of you treat your clownfish proactively for brook?

 

[snorvich]

Do any of you treat your clownfish proactively for brook?

I do not. But I would sure quarantine as brook is highly contagious.

 

[snorvich]

Do you do 4 week observation after copper if proactively treating? I am going to be proactivley treating because of ick and velvet with copper. Will be doing prazi before hand for two weeks before copper and really make sure the fish eat very well. I really just want to avoid any disease I can and keep it from entering the DT if possible.

My published recommendation for proactively treating is 4 weeks of copper followed by 4 weeks of observation.