Problem with Sps

[Alitoo_81]

Hi, I have this problem on same of my sps corals:

Usually when a problem happens, I always look at the last thing I do to the tank and try to solve it. but this time is a bit unusual.

1- I built a large glass frag tank (200 galons) and I joined it to the existing system (200 galons too) withaout letting the new tank to cure. can it be becouse of not letting the new tank to cure?

2- Can it be becouse of the huge new water update?

3- Recently I medicated the system with interseptor, but I the pill I used was defeated. can it be becouse of the defeated pill?

That is all I did before the problem I allredy lost 2 corals, they died very quickly in beginning when I joined the 2 tanks. After that the affected corals began to improve but whe I did a water change they slightly deteriorated. Pliz note that I also updated my skimmer and I have no pest. I used the Interseptor to kill the red bugs and there is no more red bugs in my tank. ALL PARAMITERS ARE PERFECT.

Another question:

do excess dosing of iodin or strountium does this effect on corals?

thank you.

 

[allsps40]

Any quick changes can cause this. Add 200 more gallons of new salt water is a pretty big change. My bet is on this for the cause of the TN. Also check for pests just in case. Water parameters wold be nice also. Look like there is some algae on the egg crate, excess nutrients?

 

[Alitoo_81]

Yes i think you are right. Not much nutrients 0 ppm nitrate 0.08 phosphate cal 440 kh 8.0 and mg 1400.

 

[chrishayes]

Any quick changes can cause this. Add 200 more gallons of new salt water is a pretty big change. My bet is on this for the cause of the TN. Also check for pests just in case. Water parameters wold be nice also. Look like there is some algae on the egg crate, excess nutrients?

Agreed, more than likely if you are using a reef salt, the new salt will be very high in alk compared to older water that is kept at 8ish dkh which I bet you run close to.

Did you measure alk and cal in the new 200gals and the old before adding? My bet is this is an alk swing issue. If you didnt test them then you could test a batch from the same salt you used to see if its really high. Good luck and I hope you can save the corals.

 

[Alitoo_81]

Agreed, more than likely if you are using a reef salt, the new salt will be very high in alk compared to older water that is kept at 8ish dkh which I bet you run close to.

Did you measure alk and cal in the new 200gals and the old before adding? My bet is this is an alk swing issue. If you didnt test them then you could test a batch from the same salt you used to see if its really high. Good luck and I hope you can save the corals.

Ok i tested the kh and it was 11 when before adding the new frag tank and after the kh droped to 8.0 . They dont look as bad as before but what can i do to help them? Can i do water change?

 

[chrishayes]

Ok i tested the kh and it was 11 when before adding the new frag tank and after the kh droped to 8.0 . They dont look as bad as before but what can i do to help them? Can i do water change?

Are you saying that the tank water was 11 and your newly mixed batch of water was 8? That sounds backwads...if thats what youre saying, you mustve been either dosing like crazy in your tank or the new water was mixed to the wrong salinity or the alk precipitated while it was mixing. Theres no good reason you would see a huge drop in dkh AFTER adding 200 gallons of fresh saltwater mixed to the proper spec gravity. Unless your salt is way low in kh or your measuring wrong. Can you make up some more water and check salintiy and kh along with cal?

I guess if your cal was really high in your tank then you added a large amount of lower cal water it could have spiked the kh. Please tell us what the pre adition test were on the tank and after mixing a fresh batch the same as you did before with the same salt, test numbers from that.

Alk and cal chemistry is strange stuff when raising one the other will fall along with if you had low mg then elevated it with the new water that coulda allowed the cal and alk to balance to the new waters levels. Please provide more info.

Normally id say water changes can fix any problem but in this case I wouldnt until you test out all the water involved to be able to not wack out the params anymore than you have. THat could exaserbate the problem more imo.

 

[chrishayes]

Truly the moral of this story is no matter the amount of water being changed or added its always a good idea to test both before adding and make sure to adjust the new water to match the old. If you need to change the params its usually better to do that with in tank treatments because you are in full control of how much of a change and how quick it happens.

 

[mordibv]

Truly the moral of this story is no matter the amount of water being changed or added its always a good idea to test both before adding and make sure to adjust the new water to match the old. If you need to change the params its usually better to do that with in tank treatments because you are in full control of how much of a change and how quick it happens.

Well said ...

 

[Alitoo_81]

Well y guess i did all this proces wrong... I didnt even test the new water all I know is that the kh was 11 and when i added the new tank it dropped down to 7 and 8 i used salinity salt from seachem. Note that i have a calcium reactor and it manteins the kh on 10 a 11. I tested the kh today and its 11 again. Do I low down the kh to 8? I will to the test to see the paramiters in new mixed water. I will use red sea coral pro they say that is evaporated natural sea water not laboratory salt. I don't dose kh but I do have calcium reactor.

 

[chrishayes]

So then im assuming your cal is about thru the roof! I dont know the number off the top of my head but balanced cal to alk of 11dkh is likely close to 600. high 500's I would think. SOme have no issues at the high kh but to me I think itd be tough to maintain that high of a kh and almost wasteful...the tank would do fine and have more "wiggle" room at 8-9. So if your tests are off by a little either up or down your still in the "neighborhood". At 11 if your kits reading low you will burn sps quickly! It will look a lot like your pics above or tip burn. But yours looks like stress induced TN. I wouldnt think any real change at this point would be good especially after what just happened.

Dont panic! If the tissue didnt fall off overnight then your not hopeless yet. Just sit tight and try to do NOTHING imo. Maybe some gel glue on the necrotic areas if they are easily removed but I wouldnt tweek anything til things settle down a bit as there is no majic bullet to fix rtn/stn. Lots of things that can help but no sure fire way. Gluing the tissue above the TN is pretty much standard first measure though.

Has the TN gotten any worse?

Really I would do the full round of tests on the tank water and then mix a batch of water as you normally would and test all those params after 24hrs to see what you need to fix but I wouldnt change anything more now. I know it sucks to not try to help or do something but these situations typically get worse with panic changes.

You didnt make any mistakes, just provided yourself with a learning experience!

 

[Alitoo_81]

You didnt make any mistakes, just provided yourself with a learning experience!

That is true my freind my cal is 440 with the kh 11 mag 1400. Can I do the water change?

 

[chrishayes]

Also, how long did you let the water mix before adding it? IMO salt brands dont matter all that much if youre having to dose to keep levels up anyways. Thats the reason most TOTM winners are using IO. Its numbers are just lower than what most run so that they can bump them up to the nubers they want without having rediculously high one or the other like most reef salts do. I use IO RC just because it mixes clean for me and the cal and alk numbers are what I keep my tank at. I am however not happy with the mg cause mine is always 1500+...I did buy a bucket of the coral pro salt you speak of to try to test it out last order time and I gotta tell ya I wasnt happy at all. First their bucket sucks! Its far too flimsy to have it shipped by ups. It came to my door with a giant hole in the bottom side. Salt leakin out of it...its thinner than a credit card. Next it doesnt have a sealing lid, instead it has a bag inside with a drawstring thype thing which doesnt keep humidity from effecting it. Plus the bucket is useless when done. My RC buckets are worth 10$ imo cause its the same as a home depot bucket with a o ring lid which is great for all sorts of things us reefers use it for.

Next, the main thing were looking at here is the salt itself. It mixes VERY milky with lots of chunky clumps that never disolve and once I let it sit overnight, the brute was chalk white and required vinegar to clean it along with a brown sandy film in the bottom. Numbers were decent but alk was really high, almost 12 with a cal of 440 so its not balanced and thats AFTER it obviously precipitated out of solution in the brute. I didnt use it in my reef but used it to cook rock and rinse sand for my new tank. I wont be using it in the future and really think im gonna go to regular IO and dose it to bring it up in mg then just run my reef at the 410ish cal and 9 alk that it mixes to.

My $.02

 

[chrishayes]

your confusing me. What is the tank numbers and what is the mixed up water numbers? Has the water been mixed and aerated for a day?

 

[chrishayes]

Also ask yourself, what are the water changes gonna do here? I dont see them helping a situation where the water changes(addition) is what caused the problem in the first place. You need to adjust your new water to your old water. Plus I seriously doubt after adding 200 gals of water that you have anything that needs diluting which is all that a change is gonna do here. THat and throw your params for another loop plus likely effecting ph and temp.

I just wouldnt do anything man, really. If you just GOTTA do something either take a jog around the block or get some gel glue to limit how far the TN spreads. lol

 

[Alitoo_81]

Ok...
The main tank (without the new frag tank) have 200 galons
The new frag tank (without the main tank) have 200 galons
Total 400 galons apro

New test of new water mixed before changing water salt used red sea coral pro:
KH 15
Cal 500
Mag 1400

New test of the system :

Nitate: 0.0 ppm
Phosphate: 0.02 ppm (digital hand test)

Kh:11
Cal: 480
Mag: 1300

Crishayes that's all I now and I have discovered a snail EATING an acro!!! I toke them all out of the tank. That explains why the dameged acro is doing good in the frag farm. I didnt imagin that this kind of snails eat acro. I missed one and i saw him eating another acro.

I think that i have to much co2 in the tank i must slow down the calcium reactor. That explains the high kh and cal in the tank also explain the grows of algae in the frag tank bicouse the calciom reactor is there.

 

[chrishayes]

Ok...
The main tank (without the new frag tank) have 200 galons
The new frag tank (without the main tank) have 200 galons
Total 400 galons apro


New test of new water mixed before changing water salt used red sea coral pro:
KH 15
Cal 500
Mag 1400

New test of the system :

Nitate: 0.0 ppm
Phosphate: 0.02 ppm (digital hand test)

Kh:11
Cal: 480
Mag: 1300

Crishayes that's all I now and I have discovered a snail EATING an acro!!! I toke them all out of the tank. That explains why the dameged acro is doing good in the frag farm. I didnt imagin that this kind of snails eat acro. I missed one and i saw him eating another acro.

I think that i have to much co2 in the tank i must slow down the calcium reactor. That explains the high kh and cal in the tank also explain the grows of algae in the frag tank bicouse the calciom reactor is there.

Ok so first off your system sounds sweet! How long have you been keeping coral? sps? How old is the main system?

Your tests for the coral pro to the naked eye look crazy, your test kit is bad, high. However, after using it myself, I have found the same thing with 12dkh AFTER a precip in the bucket. I really can t say id recommend that salt as I wont use it on my tank. Thats not the point though.

CAn you tell me what kit youre using for your tests?

Also, dont panic and start killin the snails or anything! They are eating dead tissue as they are scavengers. If youre talking about hermits, I feel they are downright predators. Not that coral are high on the list for them unless dead or dying.

All this sounds like a typical alk swing issue. Theres not a lot that can be done besides making sure that the tank alk stays as stable and possible from now on then limit the losses by super gluing the tissue of the corals above and below the affected area or you may need to be more radical and frag the corals where unaffected then toss the other in the trash...its a harsh reality and youll either learn from this or youll stop keeping sps!

The best thing you can do is try to decide on a salt brand then test its parameters then slowly raise or lower your tanks parameters to match it. Once you do that, youll want to get your cal reactor to maintain it. Not being rude honestly, but this is something you shouldve done long before putting corals in the tank. If you dont do this, all your gonna do is keep stressin your animals and fighting yourself parameter wise at each water change....And if you say, well it was never a problem before, thats because you were lilely changing much smaller volumes of water which wouldnt effect your chemistry to a point of too much issue due to precipitation and the buffer system resisting change. Throw 100% more water in there at 15dkh and I bet it looked like a canadian winter in there! Once the storm settled all the calcium had fallen out of solution and bottomed your dkh out. Then to only make matters worse, your calcium reactor likely tried to sane the day and kept on chuggin out 11dkh takin the alk from way low to way high again in a sine wave seesaw! God, why do any of us keep reefs? lol

 

[Alitoo_81]

The best thing you can do is try to decide on a salt brand then test its parameters then slowly raise or lower your tanks parameters to match it. Once you do that, youll want to get your cal reactor to maintain it. Not being rude honestly, but this is something you shouldve done long before putting corals in the tank. If you dont do this, all your gonna do is keep stressin your animals and fighting yourself parameter wise at each water change....And if you say, well it was never a problem before, thats because you were lilely changing much smaller volumes of water which wouldnt effect your chemistry to a point of too much issue due to precipitation and the buffer system resisting change. Throw 100% more water in there at 15dkh and I bet it looked like a canadian winter in there! Once the storm settled all the calcium had fallen out of solution and bottomed your dkh out. Then to only make matters worse, your calcium reactor likely tried to sane the day and kept on chuggin out 11dkh takin the alk from way low to way high again in a sine wave seesaw! God, why do any of us keep reefs? lol

the main tank is one year old and he was doing very good, this pics were taken on may 2011

 

[Alitoo_81]

 

[Alitoo_81]

note: all this corals were 1" frags

then when I added the frag tank I started to lose same corals, but now every thing is starting to recaver.

I am using API test for cal and kh, and red sea mag pro test for magnecium.

the problem here was or is the Alk like you say, I am nota a beginner I have same experience but this update truly is new for me. I think that the salt I was using have same borats so mi test was giving me a false kh. The main idea that I wanted to do first to prevent any estress was to strangle the output to the new frag farm and fully open it 15 days later. but I had a leak I dealed with that and I forgat.

what test do you prefer?

 

[chrishayes]

WOW, gorgous thak! I wasnt sayin you were a noob that shouldnt be keeping sps. I was just checking to see if things were stable and if you knew how to make the proper decisions when faced with a problem like this. Obviously, you know what youre doing to have such a fantastic tank!

I just think on the addition of so much water without testing it first is a common problem that people just dont take into consideration. Most think, hey the more water the better! Thats true as long as you take the proper steps in getting all that new water to the EXACT same params as the tank itself. So really this could and does happen to everyone. Look at all the folks that complain about switching salts then have mass losses and blame it on the salt. If they were to test the new saltwater before adding it then they wouldve known better than to add it. Its not that the salt is bad, its just different and we all know with sps, different it BAD.

As to test kits. Salifert and Elos are the two most popular kits. I use salifert myself for alk, cal and mg but ive used api as well. Api just uses too much reagent for calcium imo so it doesnt last as long as salifert. Both test within the same ballpark. I do like api's alk kit becaues of how fast it is to use. Its nice when dialing in a doser or reactor since you have to test so much. Either way as long as you are using clean vials and doing the tests over and over the same exact way then all youre looking for is consistent results not true accuracy. As long as you know the test you do today is the same as the test you did yesterday in procedure then you can rely on the measurement. Thats why I think taking alk down to 8-9 is best because if your kit isnt accurate but you are doing them the same way everytime, it really wont matter if the kit is right or wrong. The number will fall within acceptable range whether its high or low but all youre looking for is change in the number so that you can adjust your dosing gear.

Again I say let it take its course right now without changing anything. Then once things are truly stable you can start to dial in your tank to the new salt numbers.