Problems treating ich, need help

[boilermaker1]

Long story short:
had an ich outbreak, lost a lot of fish because I didnt move fast enough, was able to remove my blue hippo and put him in a 40G QT and treated with cupramine to the bottle's directions (half dose for 2 days, then full strength for 14 days, I think I actually went 16 days). I tested the copper level daily with a salifert kit and held it at .5ppm (the recommended dosage). I completed the treatment and he was spot free, removed the cupramine with carbon as directed, then moved the fish to a 75 gallon a week later for further monitoring. He has been in that tank for a little over a month now, and it looks like he's got ich again. I'm beyond frustrated right now. The tank he's in was set up with new everything (tank, filter, heater, etc... I had to buy it all just to hold him for the time being), it was set up with 100% newly mixed water, I literally transferred nothing over but the fish.... so apparently the copper treatment didnt work. So now what? Copper again? Can you safely keep coppering a fish?

 

[b0bab0ey]

I would treat him with Cupramine for 1 solid month. Or do hypo for 1 month. IMO, 14-16 days isn't long enough.

 

[sandwi54]

2 weeks is the MINIMUM time that's recommended and most people (including seachem itself) recommends 3 weeks to be safe.

Given that he has just gone through 16 days of cupramine, I would probably not subject him to another 3 weeks again as the microfauna in his stomach could get damaged with prolonged copper treatment. Also, for tangs I don't recommend the full 0.5ppm dosage due to the reason above. The therapeutic range for ich is 0.25-0.35ppm, so I usually do 0.4ppm for 3 weeks.

I would start hyposalinity for him. The salinity can be lowered in 2-3 days. Just be careful that when you change the water, you match the pH of the new water with the old water. If you have trouble doing that, then add the new water slowly over the course of one hours, like when you have to acclimate a fish. This way pH shock can be prevented.

Hold the fish at 1.008-1.009 (measured with a good, calibrated refractometer) until 4 weeks after the LAST spot is seen. Then, raise the salinity very slowly, no more than 0.002 per day. Salinity increase is very stressful on the fish (i have lost fish before due to raising too fast). It should take you over one week to get back to the normal salinity range.

 

[jhentr]

Agree with above. Treat for a month in Cupramine. I think it's easier than hypo.

 

[lagatbezan]

The same thing happend for me recently. I treated all my fish for 3 weeks with cupramine religiously and boom out of no where ich in the main tank. From what i'm reading and told, the time in qt was too short and should have kept for 4 weeks min!
I'm in the process of trying to catch all the fish and putting them in a qt again this time for 8 weeks (which is also the min time that the DT should be left fishless to kill the parasite in there) and hopefully have a dt thats ich free!

 

[MrTuskfish]

I have a bottle of Cupramine that says to treat for 14 days. SeaChem is (IMO & IME) an outstanding company and I call their tech-support often, and will on this topic. This "14 days" was their error, not yours. If you read the sticky at the top of the disease forum, you'll see why 14 days isn't enough. The info in MI is constantly changing and the rumors are so common that its tough to decide on treatment (there's even an active thread that says 'ich loves light"); I'm sure grateful that there forums like this. All the perfect answers may not be here; but there is enough great info and enough experience to help you decide which way to go.

 

[boilermaker1]

I decided last night to start cupramine again, and I'm going to go for 30 days this time. I fed him after I dosed it into the tank and he's still eating like a horse. Today, I dont see anywhere near as many spots (which is know is largely meaningless), but we'll see how this goes.

 

[boilermaker1]

OK, so this has been going now for 2 days, he doesnt look so hot. He looks a bit pale and his eyes look a little funny (small pupils), but his eyes are clear. Also looks like he's got the beginnings of HLLE. Seems to have lost interest in food, seems slightly sluggish in moving around.
Would I be right in stopping the copper treatment for the moment and letting him come back around, then doing a hypo cycle when he's back up to snuff? Or should I just lower the copper dosage a bit but keep going? Concentration right now is about 0.4ppm.

 

[boilermaker1]

Just a quick followup, I called Seachem, who said it should have been safe to re-dose for a second course of treatment, but they basically told me to monitor the fish and see how it reacts.
I decided for the moment to reduce the concentration by doing a 10% water change and not replacing the copper I removed, and turning off the lights for the rest of the day to see if he'll calm down a bit. I'm going to watch closely the rest of the day and see what happens, and hopefully as the day goes on, someone will have some helpful input.
Thanks

 

[MrTuskfish]

SeaChem has great tech support, IMO, and we don't use this resource (all companies tech support) often enough. I always take a 4-5 days to bring Cupramine levels up to where I want them; and back off if anything looks wrong. Usually, loss of appetite is the 1st signal that the fish & the copper aren't getting along. When the fish is eating normally, slowly increasing the Cupramine is almost always successful...IME. BTW, Cupramine is very effective at .30ppm.

 

[boilermaker1]

So would you think back off of it even more? I mean, I can change out more water, but I figured I'd give it a couple hours to see what happens. I left some red seaweed on the clip in the tank because he usually destroys it, so I guess we'll see. Right now he's just kind of hanging out hovering in place, somewhat against the glass, indirectly in front of a powerhead, but he is able to swim around and when he swims he doesnt look "off". He's upright, uses all fins, not leaning head up or head down, etc...

 

[MrTuskfish]

So would you think back off of it even more? I mean, I can change out more water, but I figured I'd give it a couple hours to see what happens. I left some red seaweed on the clip in the tank because he usually destroys it, so I guess we'll see. Right now he's just kind of hanging out hovering in place, somewhat against the glass, indirectly in front of a powerhead, but he is able to swim around and when he swims he doesnt look "off". He's upright, uses all fins, not leaning head up or head down, etc...

Without seeing the fish; if you feel its in danger, remove more copper. Its very easy to remove copper with carbon and SeaChem Cuprisorb works even better. I have a bag of Cuprisorb that I use in my 55 gal QT in a HOB filter. It will remove about .10ppm of copper an hour. Its rechargeable too. easier & cheaper than all those water changes, easier to monitor Cu level, too.

 

[boilermaker1]

yeah, I'm just going to play the safe route... just put carbon in a bag and dropped it in the tank. We'll see how this goes as the copper comes out. I'd really like to get him eating again, and maybe this time he needs a hypo cycle.

 

[MrTuskfish]

yeah, I'm just going to play the safe route... just put carbon in a bag and dropped it in the tank. We'll see how this goes as the copper comes out. I'd really like to get him eating again, and maybe this time he needs a hypo cycle.

If you can get some flow to the carbon; it will work faster. PH, even an airstone under the bag will work.

 

[boilermaker1]

Yeah, I stuck the bag in a power filter so there's water running through it. I'm going to give it a few hours then go test it.

 

[boilermaker1]

Happy to report he just took a couple NLS pellets. I'm relieved to say the least. Last time I tested the copper level it was about .1 and that was an hour ago, so by now I'm sure its all out, although I havent tested yet.
I guess it was the copper because he's much more active than he was earlier today and definitely almost back to acting like he usually does.
Will continue to monitor over the next few hours/days and make sure all is well.
Thank you for the help.

 

[boilermaker1]

....and complete frustration has now set in.
I just completed a hypo cycle... dropped the salinity to 10ppt (refractometer calibrated with pinpoint solution and doublechecked with a calibrated pinpoint salinity monitor), held it for 31 days (the failed copper attempt before I started hypo cleared the spots), and over the last week have been bringing the salinity back up... well guess what... It didnt work.
This seems to be the cycle... stop treatment, see spots in 6-9 days... IIRC, makes perfect sense with the life cycle of ich. So I've now re-started copper (the salinity was back up to 1.022), trying to go as slow with the dosage as I can (I started with a little less than 1/4 dose), I dont intend to try and run the full .5ppm dosage on the cupramine bottle, I'm aiming for .3-.4 and I'm going to try for the full 4 weeks at that dosage. I'm tired of it, I cant imagine its good for a fish to keep it constantly in and out of treatment, and I'd never planned on having him in a 75 gallon tank for what will now be almost 4 months.
Ugh.