Proper QT method

[RBU1]

This is an excellent method for removing the obvious Ich especially on fins and when only a few spots. It should not be used in those situations where there is Ich in the gills.

I use this method in combination with water medication and it works well.

If you have not used this then give it a try. It is minor surgery and should be viewed as that. Have you ever had a skin disorder sprayed with liquid nitrogen? Ok you get the idea now.

Warning: If you are of poor vision or do not have a steady hand do NOT attempt this method!

CAn I use my soldering gun on your pimple? I am sure it would work for that too. Is it the best

 

[RegalAngel]

CAn I use my soldering gun on your pimple? I am sure it would work for that too. Is it the best

This is an excellent method for one/two Ich spots to be treated. It provides immediate kill of the parasite and sterilization of the infected area. Absolutely the best treatment, IMO. No waiting for 4 weeks needed.

Certainly an innovative approach and I understand the skepticism as a result.
Since this thread was about Proper QT and will close with..........Think!

 

[RBU1]

This is an excellent method for one/two Ich spots to be treated. It provides immediate kill of the parasite and sterilization of the infected area. Absolutely the best treatment, IMO. No waiting for 4 weeks needed.

Certainly an innovative approach and I understand the skepticism as a result.
Since this thread was about Proper QT and will close with..........Think!

No need to think that is ridiculous

 

[WDLV]

Since you asked, here are my general quarrantine procedures (cut and pasted from my website.)

Disease Prevention
The three most important things I know on this subject are:
1. Quarrantine
2. Quarrantine
3. Quarrantine

Supplies for QTs
- 10 gallon aquarium
- Power Filter rated for 40-50 gallons
- 50W heater
- Glass thermometer with suction cup
- Two 6" ceramic tiles or one 6" flower pot (for shelter)
- 50 gallon salt mix
- Two 5 gallon buckets (one for clean water one for dirty or medicated water)
- Glass canopy or 1 sheet of "eggcrate" lighting grid
- 1 pair small diaginal cutting pliars (for cutting the eggcrate to size.)

Optional items
- Aquarium stand
- strip light fixture (PCF if you plan to keep corals/anemones)
- Pre-Fabricated water syphon or 1/2" clear tubing from home depot.

Recommended Medications
- 1 bottle of Kordon's Formalin III
- 1 bottle of Coppersafe
- 1 bottle of Amquell

Set up the system and allow it to run for at least 24 hours so the temperature can stabilize. If temp adjustments are needed, adjust to the thermometer; not the heater dial.
When you are ready to add the fish, it is generally accepted practice to float the bag for 15 minutes to allow the temps to stabilize. Drain 50% of the water into a waste water bucket and refill the volume you took out with water from the QT. You should repeat this process two or more times. When you are ready to add the fish, dump almost all the water into the waste water bucket and pour the fish into the QT. I avoid using nets wherever possible to avoid scraping or rubbing off slime and scales. These kinds of minor damage can make fish more succeptable to infection.

I usually set the tank temp for 75-78 degrees F unless it's a specamin like A. latezonatus that requires cooler temps.

If you have a particularly fragile fish like A. chrysopterus or A. nigripes, I recommend setting the specific gravity to 1.009 in advance. Use a refractometer. Swing arm hydrometers can be grossly innacurate. Hypo-salinity will kill many of the paracites that live on our fish. It's referred to as osmotic shock therapy. As the title suggests, you want to shock the organisms you are trying to kill with a sudden change in osmotic pressure so they literally explode. This is not the case when returning to regular salinity. This should be done of the course of a few days. To do this I like to allow the QT to evaporate naturally. Instead of using fresh makeup water to keep it at the same SG I add saltwater to slowly bring the salinity back up.

Quarrantine should be performed for a minimum of one month after purchase or the last symptom of disease. Whichever is longer. I usually end up quarrantining fish for 90 days. 30 for inverts.

*Invertebrates and some scale-less fishes will not survive hyposalinity.

With clowns, the diseases you will want to be most cautious of are Brooklynella, Amyloodinium and Ick (in that order.) With fish that I know to be succeptable to brook or amyloo I automatically add Formalin III to the system. Otherwise, I look at their breathing, behavior and skin (in that order) a couple times each day. The hypo-salinity may well knock out any of these three diseases before they have a chance to take hold. However, I highly recommend having the above recommended meds on hand. If the hypo doesn't knock it out, you probably have a very aggressive case on your hands and time is critical.

*Please do not blame me if you loose fish with these methods. These methods have greatly improved survival rates of my fish but they're not 100% effective. It takes experience to properly diagnose diseases and even more experience to diagnose them early.

 

[RBU1]

Since you asked, here are my general quarrantine procedures (cut and pasted from my website.)

Disease Prevention
The three most important things I know on this subject are:
1. Quarrantine
2. Quarrantine
3. Quarrantine

Supplies for QTs
- 10 gallon aquarium
- Power Filter rated for 40-50 gallons
- 50W heater
- Glass thermometer with suction cup
- Two 6" ceramic tiles or one 6" flower pot (for shelter)
- 50 gallon salt mix
- Two 5 gallon buckets (one for clean water one for dirty or medicated water)
- Glass canopy or 1 sheet of "eggcrate" lighting grid
- 1 pair small diaginal cutting pliars (for cutting the eggcrate to size.)

Optional items
- Aquarium stand
- strip light fixture (PCF if you plan to keep corals/anemones)
- Pre-Fabricated water syphon or 1/2" clear tubing from home depot.

Recommended Medications
- 1 bottle of Kordon's Formalin III
- 1 bottle of Coppersafe
- 1 bottle of Amquell

Set up the system and allow it to run for at least 24 hours so the temperature can stabilize. If temp adjustments are needed, adjust to the thermometer; not the heater dial.
When you are ready to add the fish, it is generally accepted practice to float the bag for 15 minutes to allow the temps to stabilize. Drain 50% of the water into a waste water bucket and refill the volume you took out with water from the QT. You should repeat this process two or more times. When you are ready to add the fish, dump almost all the water into the waste water bucket and pour the fish into the QT. I avoid using nets wherever possible to avoid scraping or rubbing off slime and scales. These kinds of minor damage can make fish more succeptable to infection.

I usually set the tank temp for 75-78 degrees F unless it's a specamin like A. latezonatus that requires cooler temps.

If you have a particularly fragile fish like A. chrysopterus or A. nigripes, I recommend setting the specific gravity to 1.009 in advance. Use a refractometer. Swing arm hydrometers can be grossly innacurate. Hypo-salinity will kill many of the paracites that live on our fish. It's referred to as osmotic shock therapy. As the title suggests, you want to shock the organisms you are trying to kill with a sudden change in osmotic pressure so they literally explode. This is not the case when returning to regular salinity. This should be done of the course of a few days. To do this I like to allow the QT to evaporate naturally. Instead of using fresh makeup water to keep it at the same SG I add saltwater to slowly bring the salinity back up.

Quarrantine should be performed for a minimum of one month after purchase or the last symptom of disease. Whichever is longer. I usually end up quarrantining fish for 90 days. 30 for inverts.

*Invertebrates and some scale-less fishes will not survive hyposalinity.

With clowns, the diseases you will want to be most cautious of are Brooklynella, Amyloodinium and Ick (in that order.) With fish that I know to be succeptable to brook or amyloo I automatically add Formalin III to the system. Otherwise, I look at their breathing, behavior and skin (in that order) a couple times each day. The hypo-salinity may well knock out any of these three diseases before they have a chance to take hold. However, I highly recommend having the above recommended meds on hand. If the hypo doesn't knock it out, you probably have a very aggressive case on your hands and time is critical.

*Please do not blame me if you loose fish with these methods. These methods have greatly improved survival rates of my fish but they're not 100% effective. It takes experience to properly diagnose diseases and even more experience to diagnose them early.

Good information some questions..

What do you do to control amonnia/nitrites?

what if you are getting a large fish do you still use a 10 gallon QT?

How long do you take to bring salinity back up from the 1.009?

 

[WDLV]

Good information some questions..

What do you do to control amonnia/nitrites?

what if you are getting a large fish do you still use a 10 gallon QT?

How long do you take to bring salinity back up from the 1.009?

1. 50% water changes and Amquell.... I use two tanks and do 100% water changes anyway if the fish is particularly sick so I can get rid of the settling paracites before they re-infest the fish. I clean the tank from the previous day with FW and or bleach and set it back up for the next day.
2. No. I have used anywhere from a 30 breeder to a 100 gallon rubbermaid trough for larger fish.
3. 2 days minimum.

 

[hottuna]

WDLV : Lowering the salinity to 1.009 (osmotic shock) will NOT be effective against all gill parasites as you mentioned in your first post above...Gill flukes...especially the type that lay eggs..will not die off using hypo....

 

[RBU1]

1. 50% water changes and Amquell.... I use two tanks and do 100% water changes anyway if the fish is particularly sick so I can get rid of the settling paracites before they re-infest the fish. I clean the tank from the previous day with FW and or bleach and set it back up for the next day.
2. No. I have used anywhere from a 30 breeder to a 100 gallon rubbermaid trough for larger fish.
3. 2 days minimum.

Sounds like a good plan. I just don't use the hypo part. I had been using copper and am still debating if I want to treat every fish or treat based on visual issues.....

 

[WDLV]

WDLV : Lowering the salinity to 1.009 (osmotic shock) will NOT be effective against all gill parasites as you mentioned in your first post above...Gill flukes...especially the type that lay eggs..will not die off using hypo....

No... but it's a good place to start. If I were at a public aquarium and had the know how and tools to safely perform a gill biopsy as part of my quarrantine procedures I would. As it stands, I just have to perform the best practices I have at my disposal, watch for flashing, heavy breathing or other telltale signs.

Sounds like a good plan. I just don't use the hypo part. I had been using copper and am still debating if I want to treat every fish or treat based on visual issues.....

That I won't tell you. It's really a personal choice as far as I'm concerned. For me it works best to quarrantine in hypo and evaluate my next move based on what does or does not show up. Even public aquarium professionals encounter disease after quarrantine. The important thing is that we do the best we can and adjust fire if things aren't working.

 

[Perc25]

Even public aquarium professionals encounter disease after quarrantine. The important thing is that we do the best we can and adjust fire if things aren't working.

Very true, in the years I have spent in the zoo and aquarium field we have always had very strict QT laws. At the most recent facility I worked at we necro'd every fish, took tissue samples, photos through the microscope, and of course did regular tests on the water. The samples were sent away to a lad in San Diego even when the fish died of an obvious bite wound, never knew when you had the chance to catch something before it really got started.

 

[ChuckG]

I am new practising at fish QT.. But my thought, or rather quandry is this..

It seems if you pretreat every fish as if it were a parasite carrier, then you must also QT all inverts, rock, substrate, etc.. for the 8 week fallow period before introducing them into a display tank. Otherwise they could carry the fish parasite into the display in egg form. If keeping corals, this essentially requires maintaing two seperate reef tanks, one without fish to QT the non fish items, and one as the main display.

If you're not prepared to operate all these tanks and isolate everything properly then you might as well only operate a passive fish QT proceedure and treat only those weaked fish that actually succumbs to a parasite. I guess many reef keepers would fall into this catagory because if you look at the AEFW threads there are a large number who do not operate a seprate QT for corals and rely soley on DIPs. They aren't catching the eggs because it is just to costly in dollars spent and effort to operate two reef tanks.

Does the bolded statement sound reasonable or is there less risk of importing eggs via inverts so that the active fish QT makes sense?

 

[wooden_reefer]

I am new practising at fish QT.. But my thought, or rather quandry is this..

It seems if you pretreat every fish as if it were a parasite carrier, then you must also QT all inverts, rock, substrate, etc.. for the 8 week fallow period before introducing them into a display tank. Otherwise they could carry the fish parasite into the display in egg form. If keeping corals, this essentially requires maintaing two seperate reef tanks, one without fish to QT the non fish items, and one as the main display.

Isolating inverts fishless for 8 eights is not the same as having another reef tank. Far simplier. You don't have to be concerned about nitrate and Po4 for this duration.

Inverts that need special lighting is a small challenge. Get a small T-5 setup for them, but stocking them first in DT is a good alternative.

 

[ChuckG]

Isolating inverts fishless for 8 eights is not the same has having another reef tank. Far simplier. You don't have to be concerned about nitrate and Po4 for this duration.

Inverts that need special lighting is a small challenge. Get a small T-5 setup for them, but stocking them first in DT is a good alternative.

I should have been more clear.. I was thinking in the context of SPS corals and the need to provide intense lighting and a low nutient environement.

Populating the tank with the coral first is a good idea. Most sucessful tanks latley seem to have a good fish load to help feed organics to the corals. One might have to use a substitute for this until fish are added to the system. But it is probably unrealistic to think that you could add everything that will ever be needed to a tank up front before the fish. Eventually there is going to be a new coral that has lighting or other requirments that add complexity to the coral QT tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

But it is probably unrealistic to think that you could add everything that will ever be needed to a tank up front before the fish.

It is quite realistic if only you know what corals you want from the get-go. After a good robust cycle, your tank can handle all. Add CUC first and then a few weeks later all the corals. A strong cycle has lingering effect for weeks, many be up to two months, before nitrification activity matches with bioload.

Denitrification can progress subsequently.

 

[ChuckG]

It is quite realistic if only you know what corals you want from the get-go. After a good robust cycle, your tank can handle all. Add CUC first and then a few weeks later all the corals. A strong cycle has lingering effect for weeks, many be up to two months, before nitrification activity matches with bioload.

Denitrification can progress subsequently.

I work with risk, maybe too much at times, and have a tendancy to seek out extreme possibilites. That said, if a reef tank suffers from a moderate STN event then there will be a need to introduce a fair number of new corals. If the fish are already in the display then you'll have to find a way to provide proper light and filtration to the new corals while they undergo an 8 week isoaltion.

With a good light and proper flow it might be easier to manage water quality of the coral QT with water changes than it would a fish QT... but you still add another tank to the collection.

How common is it to introduce something like ICH eggs via a coral on a fraq plug or live rock?

 

[wooden_reefer]

How common is it to introduce something like ICH eggs via a coral on a fraq plug or live rock?

The "eggs" are more like the phase of multiplication outside the fish as the organism drops off.

More likely transmitted thru the water with inverts is the waterborne phase of ich.

 

[WDLV]

With the attitude I have adopted, I will always have a minimum of three tanks.
One fish QT
One Coral QT
One display.
This is not reasonable for most SW fish keepers but if you are keeping angels you probably have the space to set up a quarrantine.

If you were not going to quarrantine rock and/or corals, I think the next best thing would be to do the rockscape first, add a boatloat of frags from a reputable source then slowly add your fish.