Prophylactic copper treatment

[StrangeDejavu]

I just tore down a tank where I didn't use proper QT procedures when first adding fish. Since i'm starting over, I found this a good time to do things right. I added my Bangaii to my QT Sunday night, and he's eaten good each day since. I wanted to give him a few days to calm down and get some food in him before starting the 5 day ramp with Cupramine. I'm new to this, so hoping to get some confirmation that i'll be doing things right. I plan on adding 0.1 mg/L each day for 5 days until I reach 0.5 mg/L. At this point, i'll be holding this concentration for 4 weeks? Also, when doing water changes, will I be dosing the difference in copper to the new water or am I matching concentrations similar to salinity?

I've had the Bangaii for about 5 months now and he's never showed symptoms of ich. That said, should I still follow up Cupramine treatment with a 4 week observation or could he go in the new tank after treatment?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ThRoewer]

Copper in any form is just a very bad idea, especially for prophylactic treatments. Copper as an immunosuppressant will weaken the fish's immune system and may open the door for opportunistic infections.

If you want to make sure your fish is clean do tank transfers (TTM). It will also be faster.

Also, I haven't seen ich on Banggais yet. From all I know they are naturally resistant.
But I have seen them succumb to velvet and brook, both not reliably killed by copper.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

I'd like to think he was clean but he wasn't the only fish to go in my tank. I added a Purple Firefish 4 months ago which died from Monogenean flukes 48 hours after acclimating. Between the two of them, chances either of them hosting ich but not showing symptoms is probably pretty high.

 

[ThRoewer]

If the other fish died of flukes I would rather treat against those.

Against ich the best and easiest prophylactic measure is TTM.
TTM is even more reliable when combined with hyposalinity.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

I just read a few different stickies on the TTM and i'll consider going that route. Since he's already in my QT, assuming he's hosting ich, my QT also has ich now. If I did the TTM method on him, do you think it would be safe to add him to my DT after the final transfer? Otherwise i'll have to bleach the QT and hope Microbacter7 can cycle it before the TTM is finished, so he can have a safe environment to hang out in during observation.

 

[snorvich]

If the other fish died of flukes I would rather treat against those.

Against ich the best and easiest prophylactic measure is TTM.
TTM is even more reliable when combined with hyposalinity.

Well, yes to the first part, TTM is the easiest and best. I do not feel hyposalinity adds any reliability. Formalin dips after each transfer, however, do.
Also, when using the term hyposalinity, it would be best to indicate SG as any SG below natural sea water is technically hyposalinity.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

I treated for flukes the day after I lost the Firefish. The Cardinal was showing some symptoms but they quickly disappeared during treatment. He's been clean since then.

As for hypo, that was the first ich treatment I read up on and didn't like all the factors that could make it go wrong.

If I did the TTM method on him, do you think it would be safe to add him to my DT after the final transfer? Otherwise i'll have to bleach the QT and hope Microbacter7 can cycle it before the TTM is finished, so he can have a safe environment to hang out in during observation.

Hopefully someone can answer this one for me. Thanks for the help so far, guys.

 

[snorvich]

I treated for flukes the day after I lost the Firefish. The Cardinal was showing some symptoms but they quickly disappeared during treatment. He's been clean since then.

As for hypo, that was the first ich treatment I read up on and didn't like all the factors that could make it go wrong.

Hopefully someone can answer this one for me. Thanks for the help so far, guys.

Hypo is prone to many types of error. If you do TTM on your fish (or any other treatment) your DT still has ich in it unless left fallow for 72 days.

 

[ThRoewer]

Well, yes to the first part, TTM is the easiest and best. I do not feel hyposalinity adds any reliability. Formalin dips after each transfer, however, do.
Also, when using the term hyposalinity, it would be best to indicate SG as any SG below natural sea water is technically hyposalinity.

Under hyposalinity in connection with Cryptocaryon treatment I understand specific gravities from 1.010 to 1.008 kg/L. Otherwise it is just "lowered salinity" (down to 1.016 kg/L)

It adds reliability because Cryptocaryon will not be able to encyst under hyposaline condition and die off (Burgess 1992).

There are some hyposaline Cryptocaryon strains that can handle even lower salinities than reef fish, but those seem to be rather rare. The only strains I ever heard of were discovered at fish farms in Taiwan, and to my knowledge Taiwan doesn't export local reef fish.

Burgess has also shown that Cryptocaryon can encyst on fish scales or even fish mucus:

This would be the main reason why you may want to add hyposalinity (1.008) to TTM if you want to be extra sure, especially if you have seen symptoms of an infection on the fish before.

I don't add it when I do TTM simply out of laziness and because I don't see ich as too much of an issue with the fish I have. Most have acquired immunity by now anyway.

Formalin dips in combination with TTM or alone on the other hand are something I take very seriously because the parasites it targets (Amyloodinium, Brooklynella, Uronema,...) are a much greater threat than Cryptocaryon.

 

[StrangeDejavu]

If you do TTM on your fish (or any other treatment) your DT still has ich in it unless left fallow for 72 days.

I no longer have a DT, lol. I tore it down, set it up in the garage and ran bleach through it for 24 hours (for problems not related to ich/disease). My empty tank will be coming back in the house this weekend. New live rock and dry sand will go in and i'm going to start the cycle shortly after. That's why I asked if the fish could go into my newly cycled DT after TTM or if he needs to have an observation period. The problem is, he's currently sitting in a QT that was cycled with stuff from my previous setup. Let's just assume he's hosting ich and that QT also has ich in it now. I pull him out and do TTM, 12 days later he has no where to go. It wouldn't make sense to put him back in the QT since he'll get re-infected. This situation is also why I initially considered copper, since it would be a 2 birds 1 stone scenario with ridding the QT and also the fish of ich. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[ThRoewer]

Is this new live rock "alive", meaning does it come from the ocean?
In that case it may contain ich and other parasite cysts.
The minimum fallow you may want to do in that case is 6 weeks - which should be also the ideal cycling time.
If ich is of concern you may want to double that period.

If it's man-made rock that's dry or otherwise dry rock it should be free of parasites.