Protein Skimmer

[greenighs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7680193#post7680193 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
pledosophy, most of my issues with seahorse.org stem from their "articles"

Read through them, and look for innacuracies. There are TONS. At one point Seahorse.org repeatedly reccomend that gaskets for bulkheads should be put on the same side as the nut. THAT IS WRONG, and every newbie who tries it is going to have water on the floor.

Its like a newspaper with frequent spelling mistakes. If they can't catch that, what makes you think theyre checking their research.

So, I take it you've notified the staff of seahorse.org about these inaccuracies and they've rebuked you? Or did you just think it was more appropriate to go to other boards to make your criticisms known?

 

[RichConley]

No greenighs, I probably should have, but I just stopped using the site instead.

The thing is with this, we're seeing a whole lot of examples of things, with extremely small sample sizes, and people jumping to conclusions. I want real evidence.

If protiens skimmers are why, I want a detailed description of the mechanism thats causing it, not "oh, it happend in my tank, so it must be because of that. Its certainly not because my husbandry is bad. Look how cute they are."

Theres already entirely too much false information spouted in this hobby, and I think a lot of the seahorse stuff is worse than in other parts of the hobby. Theres never any controls used, never any alternative thought. People just start out with an idea, and try to prove it, even if it means coming up with some cochamamy scheme to explain it.

Could it maybe be that GBD is a stress responce, as lateral line errosion seems to be in tangs? That would explain why adding a skimmer to a previously unskimmed tank would cause it: A rapid change in dissolved organics in the water column, and a large vibrating pump in the tank.

Its nice that people are trying, but the methods and conclusions theyre coming to are in no means scientific, and may be doing more damage than good.

 

[pledosophy]

P Queenie,

Thanks a lot. That means something coming from you. Marty is one great guy. I'm glad to know him.

Rich Conley,

Dude your killing me.

In the posts above, I have stated several different times, that protein skimmers will not cause problems with every seahorse. Even took the time to outline the problem down to a specific enzyme behavior. Gave examples and reasons why different seahorses react differently.

How much more of an explanation do you need then what was given?

Last week you had it confuses with a bacterial infection and now you are making more assumptions as to the cause of it based on nothing more then your speculation, at the same time condeming the people who actually do the research.

The only person who seems to be making up "cochamamy schemes" to prove there theories in this thread is you.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7680193#post7680193 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley


Its like a newspaper with frequent spelling mistakes. If they can't catch that, what makes you think theyre checking their research.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7680214#post7680214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley

My point about protien skimmers

Spelled Protein. Little pot calling the kettle black there. :lol:

 

[lfduty]

It all comes down to this what works for me or you wont all ways work for uthers. if you dont trust a skimmer than dont get one or vot on it. a lot of people can tell you things and not 1 of thim will be rite for your tank all you can do is try thim and play with thim and take the one that works for you the best thats what i do.
When i go to Instal a tank in some ones house i do it the same way i do mine and 9 timesout of 10 when some thing gos bad with ther tank some one has been playing with something on it like the Skimmer-heater or the regulator on the calcium reactor I tell all my men not to try and change the way i do a seet up. ther way may be good for thim bot may not be so good for me..

 

[TamiW]

A few years back, I mailed as many public aquariums as I could find that had seahorses with a survey about their experiences with gas bubble disease and their feelings on the matter. I meant to do something with the information; though I never got very far.

Anyway, I had six aquariums respond with experience with GBD. In no case was a skimmer implicated in the cause of gas bubble disease. Either they had them and we able to cure without the removal of a skimmer, or adding them helped fix the problem. In one case, oxygen suerpsaturation was indead the cause but this was by some other mechanism.

Anyway, in all cases, improving the water quality and the seahorse system in general seemed to be the answer. In at least once case (I think more) antibiotics were used as a precautionary measure.

There really are too few to make a firm conclusion from the information, but I think most information coming out of the public aquarium system does not support skimmers as being the cause of gas bubble disease. Maybe someday I'll find the time to survey some more aquariums and do an essay on case studies relating to this information.

I do not disagree that whatever works for you is the right answer. Unfortunately, with the number of seahorse people being afraid of skimmers is frightening - since many do not have adequite alternative nutrient export systems. With waste producers like seahorses, small water changes are not going to keep up with the waste being produced.

 

[lfduty]

I run a Skimmer my self but i have it going i stages it dont run just my horses tank my reef tank dumps in the SH tank first thin it gos in to the sump and thin the skimmer will doits job and thin back into the reef tank.

 

[pledosophy]

Tami is that you?

Nice to see you on the boards. Your not around so much anymore.

I would love to see any of the research you have on the topic. I have talked with a few different public facilities regarding GBD and regarding vibrio. It is funny the way they react to the question, but there is a ton of info out there. I know my local aquarium does not have problems with GBD, but they have a 4' tall tank, and while there is a skimmer in the system it is not attched directly to the seahorse system, but rather a large sump that runs multiple tanks. I haven't been to too many Public Aquariums but I have never seen one that ran an HOB skimmer to be able to report a problem. Lots of Public Aquariums have had problems with vibrio which they are more then happy to share there juicy research.

Anyways, glad to see ya, would love if you could post some of what you do have.

Thanks

 

[ReefNutPA]

Fishguy13:

FWIW... Off and on I've had 4 different seahorse tanks set up with various species (Erectus, Barbouri, Caps, Reidi, Kuda) since 2001. I used HOB skimmers on each tank including SeaClones, Prizms, BakPaks and AquaC Remora's. Not to jinx myself... I have yet to encounter a GBD issue.

I personally don't feel skimming is the main culprit of GBD. Perhaps it may be best to speculate that IF conditions are right AND you use a skimmer you are more likely to have a GBD issue than if no skimmer were on the tank.

I, like pledospohy, am awed at the work Marty has done for the advancement of the seahorse hobby. I'm certain that if there is a heriditary or biological predisposition to GBD that given time Marty will pinpoint it.

Additionally, given more time, research and information, if we continue to share ideas on the hobbyist level combined with scientific research (such as Marty is documenting) then perhaps we can figure out what the "other" conditions are that when combined with skimming results in a GBD issue if the horse has a genetic predisposition to the condition.

Just my opinions.....

Tom

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7686454#post7686454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishGrrl

I do not disagree that whatever works for you is the right answer. Unfortunately, with the number of seahorse people being afraid of skimmers is frightening - since many do not have adequite alternative nutrient export systems. With waste producers like seahorses, small water changes are not going to keep up with the waste being produced.

Thats most of my point right there. Theres too much misinformation being thrown about in the seahorse hobby, and its keeping people from using equipment, and doing things that would help their tanks. Theres entirely too many anecdotes being passed off as fact. I would hazard to say, that on most tanks without skimmers, a skimmer would improve the health of the seahorses.

My comment about Myco that you seem to disagree with greenighs, myco WILL indeed cause swelling and bloating in seahorses. I've seen myco infected horses, and they do swell.

The fact that a drug that deals with fluid secretion seems to help makes me think it has NOTHING to do with gas, or anything along those lines, and more along the lines of just being a general stress response... which would explain why one cause has not been found yet. (like HLLE in tangs, pretty much anything can cause it)

 

[TamiW]

pledosophy,
It is me. Or at least I think it is me, though you didn't state which Tami you speak of. I don't recognize your handle though; sorry.

The problem I have with Anne's "study" was that none of it was replicated, and many people have attempted to duplicated it without the same results. Tetra test kits were also used to measure oxygen saturation, and they are notoriously innaccurate. The only way you're going to accurately measure oxygen saturation is with a saturometer.

As for the information from public aquarias; I really think I need to get some more samples to even begin to compile the information. That's actually what stopped me last time I tried to do something with it - too little information. Each aquarium was thorough with their answers; however none seemed to have related situations. The only conclusion I could firmly draw is that they all appeared to have different causes (and that skimmers didn't seem to be it.)

But perhaps this is the kick in the pants I need to follow up with this, and see if I can get more responses.


Rich, I do agree, and strongly suspect more than anything GBD is stress related. It CAN be induced by gas supersaturation; but that can happen with any fish. However the varied responses really leads me to believe its something else. A great example right now is I have a few cb erectus in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. I've been feeding heavily; and not keeping up with water changes, using the excuse that "they're tough". I saw this morning that the male has pouch bloat. I don't have a skimmer on the tank; but I strongly suspect a skimmer would have prevented it.

I'd really like to see some side by side experiements to determine the cause of gas bubble disease. But that would require someone having a bunch of seahorses they didn't mind potentially losing; and I feel very few people are willing to do that. I know I'm not.

 

[lfduty]

I have a 35gall that i bilt im going to start to play with but naw im going to put a skimmer on it and put 20 seahorses in it with 25lbs of Miracle mudandlive mysid shrimp 15 blue hermits and some caulerpa 3 tips and see what gos on.
Im sick of evry one saying NO to some thing that thay thim selves wont try like you say (very few people are willing to do that. I know I'm not.) so i will it wont be eney loss to me. Im going to put it up naw I will post what is going on with the tank evry MONDAY.

 

[pledosophy]

If you put 20 seahorses in a 35 gallon tank GBD willbe the least of your problems. Your right I have never done this, but I know it won't end well. I've never set my pubic hair on fire either, but don't think I'll try it any time soon, nor would I recommend it.

Tami, I mean Tami Wiess, and yes I do believe it is you. I know you from the other site. Have traded some posts with you. When I was a lurker I used to follow your posts quite some years ago.

Rich,

If it was just a stress thing from the addition of an internal pump then the problem would be associated with powerheads, and internal or HOB refugiums. But it is not. It is only predominantly associated with protein skimmers.

I do not think that skimmers are the only, or the primary cause of GBD. All I have stated from the first post of mine in this thread, up until now that seahorses who are predisposed to GBD show more problems with GBD in tanks with HOB skimmers.

While myco can cause some swelling, the appearance is entirely different then GBD. They are not the same disorder.

 

[RichConley]

pledosophy, I have yet to see more than 2 or 3 anecdotal accounts of it occuring after putting on a skimmer. And that could be explained by change in polution in water.

I think you saying it is predominately associated with skimmers is contrary to the evidence presented, and misleading.

 

[TamiW]

pledosophy, that is me!

The problem I have with the skimmer theory is that it goes back to early literature where air stone bubbles were blamed for air in the pouch. It was pretty apparent to me that this was people observing bubbles in the tank, and assuming that was where the bubbles in the pouch came from. When air stones became more and more rare, people started looking at the next source of bubbles; skimmers.

The problem is that it occurs so frequently without a skimmer, and all permutations (removing, adding, adding then removing, removing then adding) that it seems completely unrelated. If it occurs and there is a skimmer on the tank, then the skimmer is the cause. If it occurs and the tank doesn't have a skimmer, then the cause is "other". It seems more likely that the cause is always "other" and the skimmer is irrelivent but common enough on tanks for people to falsely link the two.

I don't doubt there is good work going on at seahorse.org regarding gas bubble disease, but it seems that there is too much focus on trying to prove skimmers are the cause rather than unbiasedly searching for the cause. Maybe that's changed; its been a while since I regularly participated there. But that's what I recall.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7695268#post7695268 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishGrrl
pledosophy, that is me!

The problem I have with the skimmer theory is that it goes back to early literature where air stone bubbles were blamed for air in the pouch. It was pretty apparent to me that this was people observing bubbles in the tank, and assuming that was where the bubbles in the pouch came from. When air stones became more and more rare, people started looking at the next source of bubbles; skimmers.

The problem is that it occurs so frequently without a skimmer, and all permutations (removing, adding, adding then removing, removing then adding) that it seems completely unrelated. If it occurs and there is a skimmer on the tank, then the skimmer is the cause. If it occurs and the tank doesn't have a skimmer, then the cause is "other". It seems more likely that the cause is always "other" and the skimmer is irrelivent but common enough on tanks for people to falsely link the two.

I don't doubt there is good work going on at seahorse.org regarding gas bubble disease, but it seems that there is too much focus on trying to prove skimmers are the cause rather than unbiasedly searching for the cause. Maybe that's changed; its been a while since I regularly participated there. But that's what I recall.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say. The scientific method is lacking here. You're supposed to try to disprove your theory, not prove it.

The whole "if theres a skimmer on there, its at fault, if theres not, its other" is just too much of a cop out for me to take it seriously. Its not a valid theory because there is no way to disprove it.

 

[pledosophy]

You are over generalizing and putting words into my posts that are not there. I have stated repeatedly that protein skimmers only increase the frequency of GBD in seahorses that are predisposed.

pledosophy, I have yet to see more than 2 or 3 anecdotal accounts of it occuring after putting on a skimmer

This just further shows your lack of experience in this matter. It does not meant that further research, beyond your own exposure, has not been done.

I think you saying it is predominately associated with skimmers is contrary to the evidence presented, and misleading.

The survey on the org at the last tally which was just over 6 months ago, shows that almost 80% of cases of GBD occured with the use of a HOB protein skimmer. I would say that justifies as predominant. You can read through the posts yourself, I did provide you a link to the forum. I do not know the exact number or participants in the survey at that time, I think it was shy of a hundred.

There has to be some reason why major seahorse breeding facilties in the U.S don't use HOB protein skimmers. That out of the 5 Public Aquariums that I have experience with, none of them use HOB protein skimmers on there seahorse tanks. That all of the Sealife Centers throughout Europe, have removed there protein skimmers from all of there systems after experiencing GBD problems(the problems have not returned).

While I will agree with you the studies do not hold up to the scrutiny of the scientific method, at some point the volume of ancedotal evidence does begin to have a voice.

While there is a current experiment going on I will be surprised if we see a tremendous volume of data accumulated in the acadmeic world beyond what we have seen.

The research is intresting to us because we are seahorse nuts, practically it has little value. Seahorses are not bred for human consumption, and there market price is not so great to justify the research money. At this time there is simply more important things to be looked into.

Take into account that several treatments for GBD have been found and proven effective, there is just no real incentive for massive research to be done. All of these treatments are designed based on the assumption that it is a CO2 problem. They are effective. If the problem was bacterial they would not be.

Tami,
I think you'd be impressed at how far things have come.

There is an entire team of seahorse experts, marine biologists, and pathologists working together and really making some great headway. They are kind enough to share there findings with the rest of us. It is a really great group of people.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7698722#post7698722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy

The survey on the org at the last tally which was just over 6 months ago, shows that almost 80% of cases of GBD occured with the use of a HOB protein skimmer. I would say that justifies as predominant. You can read through the posts yourself, I did provide you a link to the forum. I do not know the exact number or participants in the survey at that time, I think it was shy of a hundred.

All that says is that these people had skimmers. CORRELATION DOES NOT CREATE CAUSATION.

There has to be some reason why major seahorse breeding facilties in the U.S don't use HOB protein skimmers. That out of the 5 Public Aquariums that I have experience with, none of them use HOB protein skimmers on there seahorse tanks.

Theres a real good reason: HOB skimmers are overpriced, dont perform well, and generally well, suck.

While I will agree with you the studies do not hold up to the scrutiny of the scientific method, at some point the volume of ancedotal evidence does begin to have a voice.

While there is a current experiment going on I will be surprised if we see a tremendous volume of data accumulated in the acadmeic world beyond what we have seen.

Again, until you can repeatedly, and predictably reproduce it, it doesnt mean ANYTHING.

Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence that says hermit crabs kill tangs, but we all know that isnt true, but i guarantee if theres a dead tang in your tank, a hermit crab is gonna try and eat it.

DO you have a list of what skimmers you were using? No, I bet not. How do you know its not one specific model of skimmer with bad pumps? Rios leaking electricty? You dont. You're making suppositions based on weak evidence.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7699293#post7699293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Theres a real good reason: HOB skimmers are overpriced, dont perform well, and generally well, suck.

Agreed, which is why people should not use them on seahorse tanks.

Again, until you can repeatedly, and predictably reproduce it, it doesnt mean ANYTHING.

Agreed, but is has been repeated and reproduced several times, by several different keepers, under several different scenario's. You not having exposure to it does not make it not so. The information is all out there is you would like to investigate for yourself.

Theres plenty of anecdotal evidence that says hermit crabs kill tangs, but we all know that isnt true, but i guarantee if theres a dead tang in your tank, a hermit crab is gonna try and eat it.

That's just ridiculous. Everyone knows how susceptable those slow moving tangs are to hermit crabs. :lol:

DO you have a list of what skimmers you were using? No, I bet not. How do you know its not one specific model of skimmer with bad pumps?

Actually I do. Seaclones seem to be the worst at causing reoccurances. The type of pump used has shown to be a non factor.

The survey was not designed to be pointed towards skimmers. It runs a wide variety of question including tank maintnence, breeding practices, tank parameters, making of salt water, types of water, number of seahorses, disease history, nutrition and feeding habits, treatments of GBD, frequency of occurance, tank specifications including size, height, width, type of substrate, amount of substrate, tankmates, coral mates, types of macro algaes, presence of nuisance algaes or bacteria's, lighting types, lighting intensity, light cycles, presence of external refugiums, light cycle for fuge if present, types of filters used including make, UV presence, types of aeratiuon, amount of flow, and surface agitation.

The study did not look into skimmers causing GBD, it looked into the tanks were GBD was present, factored multiple things, with the results showing that protein skimmers were the key factor involved. The number of survey completed to get the 80% number was 85. It is not the largest survey completed, but it is sizeable.

You're making suppositions based on weak evidence.

The only suppositions based on no evidence I have seen in this thread is you stating that GBD is infact myco bacteria related, or that GBD is a stress response. You made further claims based on your misinterpretaion of the use of Diamox, and how the drug works.

Instead of telling me what I do and do not have or have accsess to, why not come up with some kind of research or intellgent justification for your "thoughts".

IMO people who randomly post personal opinions like they are facts only fool themselves and people with little to no experience. For years there was a women on these boards who preached about new fry raising techniques until it was finally discovered after years that she was never able to raise fry with these techniques, and all the info she had stated over those years was completely made up. Those of us who have been around awhile easily saw through her, but several newbies fell into her trap because it was what they wanted to hear.

I am sorry but the experience has made me very untrusting of people who come to this forum and make post suggesting that everything that I have learned through years of research is false.

IMO it is extremely irresponsible and selfish to come to boards like these where people are seeking help or trying to learn and post wild accusations without any explanation or justification other then I think, or I doubt.

Why not clear some things up.

Under what circumstances have you viewed a seahorse that was afflicted with GBD mimick the symptoms of mycobacteria?

Under what situation have you seen a seahorse with mycobacteria mimick the symptoms of a seahorse with GBD?

Have you ever experienced a seahorse with GBD to form granuloma formation in the affected sites which can include muscle, skin and the internal organs?

Who diagnosised the myco? Was a strain identified?

When have you ever seen a seahorse with GBD respond to antibiotics? Which antibiotics? At what dosage?

Assuming that CO2 or 02 saturation is not the cause of GBD and cleaner water is like you suggested with your "the skimmer cleans the water which causes the seahorses to be stressed and succomb to the GBD" arguement, can you name any other disease that affects syngnathids that arises from cleaning water? Any other marine fish? (we are assuming this does not include massive water changes which would quickly alter the PH or temp because the addition of a skimmer would not cause such conditions)

Why don't all seahorses who have GBD culture positive for myco?

Why does temperature not affect the growth rate of GBD, as it would if it were bacterial?

Why does a change in depth cure the mycobacteria when it presents itself as GBD?

Why do we only see GBD in aquarium settings, when we see other bacterial conditions in the ocean?

What would cause the secondary infection to present as GBD instead of the vibrio spectrum illnesses that have been identified and documented over the past two years?

Can you please list any bacteria related disorders that affect syngnathids to the point of causing visible symptoms, that just disappear on there own? Any others that disappear after a protein skimmer is removed?

I think that's a good start.

 

[RichConley]

Ok. This is exactly why I dont go on seahorse.org anymore. Point proven.

Here's a question for you: What percentage of seahorse owners were running HOB skimmers on their tanks at the time the survey was taken?


Without that number, that 85% is absolutely useless. EVERYONE I know with a smaller (<75g) seahorse tank, is running a HOB skimmer. So if I assume 90% using HOB skimmers, saying 85% of GBD cases were in tanks with skimmers is actually evidence that GBD is HELPED by skimmers. Do you have those facts? I dont think so.


As to coming on this board and posting oppinions: You are posting your oppinion with no evidence to back it up. All of your survey is CRAP. It has absolutely no scientific merit, and is just about as valid of a conclusion as mine about Tangs being hunted by hermit crabs. Your 'survey' is hurting more than its helping.



STOP USING THE WORD RESEARCH. NOTHING YOU HAVE DONE EVEN APPROACHES THAT TERM.

 

[only4fudge]

I have a 30g, and thankfully I have a skimmer now, before the water was always so dirty, and murky. With all the corals I have in there, on top of fish, I didnt think they would like the fact that they are literally swimming in their own $#!+.

Praise the man/woman who invented the skimmer!