protien skimming vs refugium

[outy]

You dont have to do water changes to have a successful reef, most people do them to reduce nitrates and phosphates, in a 14 year old tank running a huge skimmer and a fuge with chaeto and some GFO and a DSB i just finished a 4 year run without a waterchange before I had to work on the tank. Corals thrived and I need to sell them just to make room. this isnt for everyobody and i dont reccomend seeing how long you can go I just had allot of life happen in those 4 year lol.

I also know allot of SPS tanks that sell coral as well that dont do many water changes because they overskim and have a fuge. These people also know if you get a bad batch if salt you can mess up your tank and when you have thousands of dollars riding on the line your very carefull about what you add to the tank.

what this all comes down to is you dont need a fuge or a skimmer but if your sole means of nitrate and phos reduction is water changes you will change more then a ton of water on a yearly basis.

 

[ingtar_shinowa]

Amen Brother outy! I agree with this philosophy, and as the hobby becomes more and more sophisticated I think there will be more of us by scores. The only water changes I do on my SPS dominated tank if to clear out the small sump every month or so of detrius.

 

[ddeneve]

So is the consensus that if you do not have chaeto you must have some other form of nutrient export that a skimmer can not provide?

 

[teesquare]

There is no "consensus"...There are a lot of different ways to run a system. Most of them can be sucessful, *IF* you understand the strengths and weaknesses of your chosen method.:fun4:

IMHO:

1. The use of plants/algaes is somewhat limited due to the quanity required to be effective coupled with the extra time required to manage it. As well, it can - and does - release some of the organics adsorbed as it dies/grows. When you trim it, leaving fresh cut strands means that some of this is "bleeding" back into the water. Still - it can be useful if you want to take the time to get familiar with proper management.

2. Skimmers: Can be effective for removal of surface reactive compounds ( molecules which have an attraction to air bubbles). There is a range of effectiveness, and no one sure-fire way that the average hobbyist can measure the effectiveness. We like to think that the darker more concentrated color skimate is better, but testing does show that it is better for removing certain things, whereas running the skimmer more "wet" removes other compounds better.
Bottom line for me with skimmers, is - yes they are spendy - for the good ones ( But I believe one need not buy the most expensive, and then expect it will out-perform a less expensive one) But even the simplest wooden airstone, co-current design ( which is the most crude, and oldest technology - older than many of us here) CAN be fairly effective and worthwhile as PART of the solution. That is - *IF* you take some time to get to know the skimmer, and understand how to adjust it, are feeding it the right combination of air and water, and so on. Not simple to do really right - but really worth it to do it right.

3. Carbon - do some searching on this site - and you will find some extensive research done on carbon and it's most effective use, and dtermining which carbon is best for your needs. It is a worth while addition in your arsenal.

4. Water changes: Like religion and politics - everyone believes they are right - regardless of how they do it - or don't do it.

For me it is that I know we cannot measure EVERYTHING that is building up in our tanks. Sure we have some nice instruments, and test kits available, but - they are by no means able to detect ALL of the compounds which may affect out tank inhabitants.
Further, there are trace elements and other ingredients that are used up, and depleted that we cannot effectively measure - or the direct input thereof.

So - water changes are simply the same thing as fresh air to you and I. They replenish some things, and they dilute other things that would otherwise build up that may be un-desireable.
I have seen tanks that have gone a long time without water changes. But- that is best left to the either very lucky or the very experienced. Because even that trend comes to an un-timely end, then they change water when something goes wrong. So, I believe in pro-active maintenace, as opposed to "post-crash analysis" when ever and however possible.

There is no magic bullet. Keeping aquaria is called "husbandry" in many circles for a good reason. It requires reading, listening, learning, and being attentive.

Best o' luck!

T

 

[aquavista99]

I would recommend using both a skimmer and macro algae. Mangroves really do not remove much nutrients in captive systems but their roots help keep the sand bed alive and well. Chaeto macro algae is great for nutrient export and is fast growing... It is also highly adaptable to a very wide range of lighting.

I remember reading an article (which i have been unsuccessfuly trying to find for about an hour now) that detailled and experiment to prove what was the most efficient nutrient exporter, red mangrove, chaeto, or caulerpa. I was wondering if their was a similar experiment with protien skimmers that shows how much, and what type of, waste it was removing.

a comparison of these two studies could yield the answer to the debate of "whats more efficient a skimmer or a refugium"?.

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

I haven't used a fuge in about 3 years. I use a skimmer and dsb in my DT.

My sump holds my skimmer, return pump, heater. I also dose carbon. You can have the fuge. I have done it both ways. I'll take my "inefficient" skimmer and the loads of waste I empty out of it.

 

[dcombs44]

I also know allot of SPS tanks that sell coral as well that dont do many water changes because they overskim and have a fuge.

Overskimming = Water Change

Not large ones, but water changes nonetheless. Skimming wet, pulls water from the system, which has to be replaced and salt will have to be adjusted to keep it stable.

The statement that husbandry is the key holds true in my opinion. There are lots of ways to have success, it just depends on the path you wish to take.

Protein skimmers, IMO are insurance policies. While they do aid in removing organics before breaking down, to me, they serve more of a purpose in saving your tank in the event of a small emergency. If something dies while you're not around, your skimmer could save your tank.

Refugiums are similar. They help, but you can do fine without them. You really need a large volume of algae though for them to truly function efficiently.

 

[ddeneve]

My question is, if you use a skimmer alone will it be able to remove nutrients without other methods of nutrient export including water changes. I am not stating that water changes are solely for nutrient export either.

 

[Mavrk]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that a fuge is a fantastic home for zooplankton. Chaeto in particular is a great breeding ground for these fellows. I know this is a discussion of nutrient exchange, but I thought it worth mentioning (ust like someone mentioned skimmers having the side benefit of extra aeration).

 

[builderguy]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that a fuge is a fantastic home for zooplankton. Chaeto in particular is a great breeding ground for these fellows. I know this is a discussion of nutrient exchange, but I thought it worth mentioning (ust like someone mentioned skimmers having the side benefit of extra aeration).

I was thinking the same thing. In fact I just increased the size of my fuge relative to the DT just so I could produce more pods for the tank.