Pump Failure

[crimson0152]

Can the Apex Controller determine if a pump has failed? Let's say one of my return pumps stops working. Can the Apex sense that? If it can, then I should be able to get an email alert, right? Also, what if a pump is running too long?

 

[RussM]

No, it cannot do anything like that directly. To detect a possible return pump failure indirectly, you could use a float switch connected to the Apex to detect an abnormally-high level of water in the sump, which in turn could trigger an email alert. This same switch would serve double duty to detect something like an ATO malfunction.

 

[niko5]

My pump failed on me a week ago and the only way I knew was my topoff high float was on and shouldn't of been...

 

[Specialtang]

I have heard of people using a electronic flow meter so when the flow stops they know the pump as stopped. Then they use a breakout box to monitor the flow meter

 

[swearint]

Also, what if a pump is running too long?

That is possible by using a virtual outlet and the Defer command to create a timer. But it depends on how you are controlling the pump. Assuming you are using a switch:

[Pump_Limit]
Set OFF
If Switch1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 60:00 Then ON

This will activate Pump_Limit (ON) after the switch has remained CLOSED for at least 60 minutes.

Todd

 

[crimson0152]

Can't you tell the outlet to run for a maximum amount of time? Say you want to have your ATO pump run for no longer than 10 minutes to prevent it from continuing to run it there is no water in the reservoir.

 

[crimson0152]

Can't you tell the outlet to run for a maximum amount of time? Say you want to have your ATO pump run for no longer than 10 minutes to prevent it from continuing to run it there is no water in the reservoir.

I have a Tunze ATO that has the light sensor to detect when to fill. If the water gets too high, the unit beeps. How can I have the Apex detect that and send me an email?

 

[RussM]

Float switches are the best way to accomplish both goals, IMO. The problem with using time-based programming for safety measures is that they are not deterministic.

Here's an example of how virtual outlets & multiple float switches might be used to control various operations, and to act as safety measures.

Sump_VHi // sump very high level/overfilled - use as backup to Sump_Hi and to detect return pump failure
Sump_Hi //sump normal high level - use to shut off ATO at normal fill level
Sump_Lo //sump normal low level - use to activate ATO
Sump_VLo // sump very high level - use to detect possible tank overfull condition (e.g. if overflow standpipe is obstructed)
Reservoir_Hi //ATO reservoir full - use to shut off RO solenoid if used to auto-fill ATO reservoir
Reservoir_Lo // ATO reservoir empty - use to disable ATO if RO/DI supply is low

 

[swearint]

Can't you tell the outlet to run for a maximum amount of time? Say you want to have your ATO pump run for no longer than 10 minutes to prevent it from continuing to run it there is no water in the reservoir.

Yes, the Pump_Limit would accomplish that. Just add 'If Outlet Pump_Limit = ON then OFF' in the ATO Outlet. Though that requires that Switch1 becomes OPEN again to reset. In otherwords, if the sump does not fill completely during that delay, Pump_Limit will remain ON and lockout the ATO. Here is a different way to do it that combines both float control and a time limit that automatically resets:

[ATO_Allow]
OSC 00/30/210 Then ON

[ATO]
Set OFF
If Switch1 CLOSED Then ON
If Outlet ATO_Allow = OFF Then OFF
Defer 00:30 Then ON


This sets up a repeating 'window' of time in which the ATO can operate, but it is still controlled by float switches in the sump. I adopted this approach because relying solely on the floats was causing the ATO to short cycle, adding small amounts multiple times throughout the day. The short Defer buffers out any float bounce.

Todd

 

[RussM]

Brilliant, Todd! That gives the best of both time-based and switch-based checks & controls.

 

[crimson0152]

Thanks for the responses. Good stuff.

Well, last night it happened. I had a return pump fail. So the sump started filling with water and covered the light sensor for the ATO, which triggered the ATO's alarm. Luckily, I was home when this happened.

So is there a way for the Apex to detect that the alarm has been set off, so that I can use the great commands above? How does the apex know that a float switch has been activated or is in "very high" position?

If I have this happen again, I need to get the skimmer turned off immediately and I want an email. Fine, I can do that. But what I am not understanding is how the Apex reads what has happened to the float switch or (hopefully) my Tunze light sensor for the ATO.

 

[crimson0152]

OK, I've been RTFM'ing (reading the manual) and it seems that the only way I can do this is to add an I/O breakout box and then I can add switches to that. Then the Apex will be a ble to see the switch positions and I can program accordingly.

 

[tinman11]

pump failure

pump failure

hello, so if i read this right i could use the hi water switch to turn on the backup pump but could it also be used to turn of the failed pump outlet as a safety precaution?

 

[swearint]

Yes.

[Sump_HI]
Set OFF
If Switch1 CLOSED Then ON
Defer 00:10 Then ON

[Pump_Main]
Set ON
If Outlet Sump_HI = ON Then OFF

[Pump_Backup]
Set OFF
If Outlet Sump_HI = ON Then ON

Sump_HI is a virtual outlet, this will allow you to see the switch state on the Status page. The Defer filters out any 'noise' from waves, etc.

Todd

 

[crimson0152]

OK, I got the breakout box and a float switch. I find the directions on setting up a vitual outlet to be confusing. The BB connects to the Base Module, so what type of module do I add? (DC8?).

If I undersand the float switch correctly, if it is not in the water at all - which should be the normal case since I want this to detect when the water is abnorally high in the sump - then the switch is closed. So I want to be alerted when the switch is open.

That said, (without a virtual outlet) I would want commands for my pump outlets and email to be something like this:

[PUMP_1]
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Switch1 OPEN then OFF

[PUMP_2]
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Switch1 OPEN then OFF

[SKIMMER_PUMP]
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Switch1 OPEN then OFF


Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Temp > 82.0 Then ON
If Temp < 75.0 Then ON
If pH > 08.70 Then ON
If Switch1 OPEN then ON

 

[crimson0152]

Is that correct?

 

[crimson0152]

I tested it - it works. But I am still unsure of how to set up the virtual outlet.