Pump slower using nylon tubing

tarl1089

New member
About a year ago, when I started my system, I received ample criticism for using 1.5" PVC on my return pump. Many experienced hobbyists told me that using the wider pipe would increase head pressure and actually lower the GPH of my return pump, thus 1" was preferable. I was also advised that using flexible nylon tubing was preferred to PVC because it reduces sound and also head pressure. Having a little extra time on my hands this weekend, I upgraded my system taking these considerations to mind. I replaced my PVC return using 1" braided nylon tubing.

My return seems to be running much slower as the water line in my sump is higher (with the same amount of water) and I had to turn the ball valve in my overflow to keep it from gurgling. The pressure on the loc-line return feels lighter and I think my pump is actually louder now. Does anybody have any idea what's going on?
 
Larger pipes reduce head loss from friction, not increase it. You just massively cut the flow rate, by increased friction, with downsizing your plumbing. Not only is the 1" braided nylon probably worse than 1" pvc, but the fittings for tubing are much much smaller (way more friction) than pvc fittings (which are larger than the pipes).

Wish you could just ctrl+z in real life at this point...
 
Wish you could just ctrl+z in real life at this point...

Very true. Fortunately, this whole endeavor has only cost me ~$40 and half a day's work (mostly driving back and forth from Lowes). So, could be worse.

So, should I upsize the nylon or slap the old 1.5" PVC back on?

P.S. I was told that larger size increased head loss from the weight of having to push more water vertically
 
Weight of the water not directly over the pump outlet has nothing to do with anything, even taken to the silly. Your pump can push more water into a pool (hole drilled in the bottom) per second than it can push up a straw. It will come out of the top of the straw sooner, yes, but over time the water coming out the top of the pool will be flowing more water. A 1" outlet on a pump with 1" tubing 6' tall will have the same head as the 1" pump in the bottom of a 6' pool full of water. All the water around the outlet is pressing down into the ground, not the pump.

Now there is a point where increasing diameter on plumbing doesn't give gains worth the material/space, but in general bigger is better.

I would put the 1.5" stuff back. If you do have some vibration generated noise, you can replace a short piece of pipe with spa-flex to help isolate the pump vibration from the rest of the plumbing.
 
Update:
It actually is quieter. The pump had just been out of water for 24 hours and now it's quieter than it was with the pvc. It's still not pushing water out as fast but the overflow has adjusted and is no longer slurping. I may leave it as-is as the water line in the sump is only about an inch higher so I can just suck out some water to compensate. The decreased noise is probably worth it since I have plenty of flow from powerheads in my tank.

Maybe when I have another free weekend I'll modify my old PVC to include spa-flex.
 
+1 to Gorgok's comments.

I'm not sure what people were thinking when they told you a larger diameter pipe would increase the head pressure. There are two determinants to head pressure - the static pressure due to the column of water, and the resistance to flow in the pipes. The static pressure is only affected by height. (this is because pressure is measured in force per unit area - if there is a larger area, there will be a larger total force but the pressure will be the same.) Since the outlet of your pump is a fixed diameter no matter, the static pressure will be the same.

The second component, pipe resistance, is proportional to flow rate and inversely proportional to pipe diameter (actually ~1/r^4) So the faster the flow and the smaller the pipe, the more resistance. A couple of points with this - a smaller pipe actually causes a double whammy: more intrinsic friction as well as faster flow for a given gph, meaning more resistance from flow.

The other factor with vinyl tubing is that the connectors tend to be restrictive. PVC connectors do not appreciably narrow the lumen, but the barbed fittings used with vinyl tubing do, unless you significantly upsize the tubing.

IIRC, there are a couple of pumps that need a specific diameter pipe for reasons I am not familiar with, but that is the only think I could think of that might explain the comments.
 
+1 to the those who told you were dead wrong.

There is some difference based on impeller styles that really doesn't apply in our hobby, but anyway the tradeoff it is way up there in height like 20 feet +. For a standard tank bigger is almost always better.

I once saw a mag 9? push up water with a 1=3/4" and a ~2" and at six feet the 2" significantly outperformed the 3/4" at ~15 feet there was a point when the larger diameter slowed down the flow, it was high and the flow from both was very negligible. So unless you are pumping water up three floors bigger is better.
 
At 15' the friction in the pipe became irrelevant in the scheme of things since that is just about shutoff height for the pump. If the shutoff was 30ft the 2" pipe would flow a significant amount more than the 3/4 at 15ft.
 
About a year ago, when I started my system, I received ample criticism for using 1.5" PVC on my return pump. Many experienced hobbyists told me that using the wider pipe would increase head pressure and actually lower the GPH of my return pump, thus 1" was preferable. I was also advised that using flexible nylon tubing was preferred to PVC because it reduces sound and also head pressure. Having a little extra time on my hands this weekend, I upgraded my system taking these considerations to mind. I replaced my PVC return using 1" braided nylon tubing.

My return seems to be running much slower as the water line in my sump is higher (with the same amount of water) and I had to turn the ball valve in my overflow to keep it from gurgling. The pressure on the loc-line return feels lighter and I think my pump is actually louder now. Does anybody have any idea what's going on?

What kind of pump is it? That can make a difference. Generally you need only up-size the pipe one size above that of the actual pump outlet size to see around a 2/3 reduction in friction loss. This is common (or should be) practice, and a part of Centrifugal Pumps 101, or "How To Install and Run Centrifugal Pumps."

The one exception to this rule are the Mag Drive pumps 9.5 and larger. They are supposed to be "positive displacement" pumps, and are advertised as such. However, positive displacement pumps are not affected by pressure head, E.G. the flow curve is a "straight" vertical line (in a perfect world; friction loss is converted and added to the pressure head.) However, the Mag Drive pumps are poorly designed, and due to the design flaws, it requires the use of 1.5" pipe on the outlet to get any flow out of them. This is stated, not obviously, but very clearly in the directions for the pumps. It is certainly an impeller/volute design flaw, and it is with the impeller/volute design, that causes variations in pump performance. (all else being equal.)

Still, in reading this thread, I see some things that are amiss. One of them concerns weight of water. Weight is a function of mass and the acceleration due to gravity. It is not the same as pressure. You will see weight (in reference to an aquarium) measurable below the water column; inside the water column the pump will see pressure, not weight. The pressure or "pressure head" is a function of depth + atmospheric pressure (hydrostatic pressure as absolute pressure opposed to "gauge pressure" which ignores atmospheric pressure.) This pressure will vary with elevation above sea level. Just general information.

The pump will not see weight, only pressure. Pressure at a given point in a water column will be equal in all directions, and at every single point at the same depth as the "original" point. E.G. the pressure up is equal to the pressure down, sideways, around & through, and measuring weight at that point, will = 0. What this says is that in a water column of any volume, at the same depth the pressure will be the same. It also means that regardless of the relative diameters concerned (pipe id and pump outlet id) at the same depth, the pressure will be the same.

So if you have a 3/4" pump outlet with 2" pipe above it, the pump will see "x" pressure; if the pump outlet is 2" with 2" pipe above it, the pump will see "x" pressure. If the pipe is 3/4" sitting on a 3" pump outlet, at the same depth as the other two, the pump will see "x" pressure. Weight is irrelevant. Although what you will get out of the pump in the last "what if" will be nothing more than a dribble.

A great many hobbyists are not aware of these principles, and a portion that are aware, have trouble believing it, and don't up-size their pipe. Or they up-size the pipe, and then negate the increase in flow by splitting their return line, and using loc-line fittings, or "gyro" type things. However it is not something to be believed, it is physics. It is unfortunate, but a good thing, that you have seen these principles in action, in the dynamic context. Increasing pipe size does make a positive difference and that difference is very noticeable.
 
Yes "weight" has nothing to do with it. And upsizing the pipe diameter is almost always a surefire bet to maximize flow from your pump.
 
@uncleof6: I am using a mag 9.5. That's very informative, I'm going to redesign my return with that consideration. I once heard while first coming into this hobby that more than anything else, the most I would learn about in this hobby would be the physics of water, and those lessons would often be hard. Thus far, that has proven to be accurate.
 
In my old tank I had to clean the tubing every 3 months because algae would grow inside the clear tubing. This time I am hard piping everything with unions at several places.
 
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