PVC... To Prime or not to prime...

MHG

Active member
This was a great read. I was looking this up after I saw a BRS video that showed the guy slopping the purple primer all over the nice red PVC pipes. Like why bother paying twice as much if your going to slop purple primer all over it. While I would say I never use it, I am sure countless professional plumbers would respond why it is used and that it is "code" in most states and it is purple so the inspector can see it was used.


That being said, here is a great study on the subject and the conclusion will likely cause a few heads to explode...


https://www.plumbingsupply.com/the-great-pvc-primer-debate.html
 
This was a great read. I was looking this up after I saw a BRS video that showed the guy slopping the purple primer all over the nice red PVC pipes. Like why bother paying twice as much if your going to slop purple primer all over it. While I would say I never use it, I am sure countless professional plumbers would respond why it is used and that it is "code" in most states and it is purple so the inspector can see it was used.





That being said, here is a great study on the subject and the conclusion will likely cause a few heads to explode...





https://www.plumbingsupply.com/the-great-pvc-primer-debate.html



Sorry, I don't have the time to read all that, but all I can say is I have never used PVC prime.
Just cleaner and cement and never had an issue.



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good to know, i always use clear pvc primer, maybe i wouldnt do that anymore.
i dont know how will that affect us(as reefers), if somehow you have the force big enough to uncouple the joint. i think something else will give out first.
 
For those who don't want to read the entire article, I'll jump straight to the conclusion.

Conclusion

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effect of primer on the strength of solvent welded PVC and CPVC joints. Was primer necessary to have better joint strength? The hypothesis was that if primer penetrates and softens the plastic surfaces prior to the application of cement, then the inclusion of primer in the solvent welding process should achieve maximum fusion and strength. This was not the case. In both tests, the primer had a negative effect on the strength of the pipes. In the compression test, more primed joints failed first than unprimed joints. In the torsion test, the primed joints overall took less force to fail than the unprimed joints. The primed joints also had a higher failure rate, although the rates were more equal than in the compression test.

A reason why the primed joints were weaker than the unprimed joints may be that the primer presoftens the plastic more than the cement alone, so the plastic may have taken significantly more time to cure in the primed joints.

Another reason why the primed joints were weaker than the unprimed joints may be that the cement may have needed to be applied immediately after the primer is applied to prevent the primer from drying. Because the application was a manual process, a few seconds of exposure to air that the primer had could have dried it such that it formed a barrier to the cement to prevent the two materials from fusing together with the help of the cement.

Yet another reason the primed joints were weaker than the unprimed joints may be that the primer presoftens the plastic more than the cement alone, so when the plastic hardens again, the molecular structure may have changed. The hardened plastic may not have the same strength as the original plastic material.

The final reason why the primed joints could be weaker than the unprimed joints could be that because the cement contains most of the same ingredients as the primer does, the primer may not have added any real benefit to the joint strength. The primer may have actually made the joint weaker. The concentration of these ingredients in the cement alone may be more conducive to making a stronger joint than the concentration of the ingredients in both the primer and the cement combined. Therefore, cement alone may create a stronger joint than a two-step process of primer followed by cement. The manufacturer, Oatey SCS®, has been contacted, but so far no comments have been received.

While curing, the joints were not close to full strength. The manufacturer provided that the cure times for 1/2 in* sch. 40 PVC pipes from 60°F-100°F subjected to up to 180 psi are 15 min at most, but according to the test data, a fully cured joint at 24 hours is at least 30-50% stronger than the joint is at 2 hours. According to the manufacturer, the cure times for CPVC pipes are 1 hour at most. Based on the tests conducted at 2, 4, 6, and 24 hours, the strength increases greatly as time progresses, which is an indication that the cure time for the joints takes longer than the cure time suggested by the manufacturer. Most plumbers in the field would pressurize and test the system 15-30 minutes after solvent welding. This means the premature testing in the field could potentially lead to unnecessary joint failures.

The strongest cement was the Medium Gray PVC cement. The weakest cement was the Regular Clear PVC cement. The cement that primer (negatively) affected the most was the Rain-R-Shine® Medium Blue PVC cement.

There are many practical applications of this experiment. This investigation is of value to the plumbing and engineering community as it provides an answer to a highly debated subject. Many people have argued about whether primer serves a positive purpose in solvent welding on professional plumbing forums. There are differing opinions based on previous experiences of plumbers. It is the standard method of assembly to use primer in solvent welded joints because IPC (International Plumbing Code), UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) as well as most regional plumbing codes require it. Yet, many plumbers follow this method because of the requirement, not because of the belief that it creates a better joint. If primer does not make a stronger joint, then the step of applying primer can be skipped resulting in tremendous amounts of time and cost savings. This report attempts to prove one way or the other whether primer is an essential component of creating a strong PVC joint.



I have not used primer since my first attempt at plumbing an aquarium some 30 years ago. I found it to be messy, and when I knocked over the can in my living room, decided that I'd just try it without. I haven't looked back. And have yet to have a joint leak or fail in any way.
 
I never have either. Can't stand the way it looks.. I find it funny that it actually causes higher failure rates in lab tests test it is "code" in many states.
 
Will continue to use primer. I've followed the same method over the years and never had a plumbing failure on any aquarium tanks or sprinkler system(s) I've installed. I guess there is always a first but then again it hasn't happened yet so if it isn't broke, why try and fix it?

Measure twice
Cut
Rough sand pieces I'm connecting
Fit and draw line to mark if position is required
Apply primer
Let primer dry
Apply PVC cement to both pieces I'm connecting
Fit together, turn 1/4, press firmly, count to 10, turn 1/4 to align marks or to set
Count to 10 again
Let set 12 - 24 hours
Turn on sprinklers, visually check for leaks
Cover and be done

More or less that is what I do. Sprinklers and plumbing aquarium. Probably overkill but that is how I was taught 30 some odd years ago. Go figure.
 
Only twice as much for red PVC?

Also I think you kind of answered your question within the question " if your going to slop purple primer all over it" don't "slop" it all over, be deliberate in how you apply.
 
Let's take this "study" with a grain of salt. There's differences between 16 year old kids (Sophmores) doing a school science project and professional plumbers that do this every day.

Also - there's this statement:
The pipe is not fully seated into the fitting socket in order to allow space for it to fail during the compression test and in order for it to be weak enough to fail for the torsion test

The experiment was set up so the solvent welds would fail.
 
One other thing to take into consideration, we are using the PVC plumbing as a "transport" mechanism to move water from point "A" aka tank to point "B" aka sump, then back again. None of our systems are under any pressure to speak of, so as long as there are no leaks, do whatever will make you sleep good at night.
 
I was under the impression that the difference between primer and cleaner was the color.

The lab looks a lot cleaner than a typical job site. I suppose it is possible to find PVC pipe and fittings that are so pristine that they don't need to be cleaned, but it doesn't take much oil to prevent a complete weld. Perhaps if the test included a step like "wipe pipe end with grimy hands" it would have come out different.
 
A primed joint will be stronger if applied correctly. From what I gather they didn’t apply it correctly to begin with. U have to apply the cement while the primer is still wet. If u let the primer dry then the primer will do more harm then good. That wasn’t the only thing they did wrong eighther, so I wouldn’t put much into it.

On most systems we don’t have much pressure & u can get away without using primer. I still always use it but that is because that is how I’m used to doing it. I do a lot of plumbing. If not using primer I would use a cleaner.
 
well from what I read, this is their procedure...



How to Solvent Weld

(Refer to this when the below procedures call for solvent welding)
1) Identify the two pieces of material to be solvent welded.
2) Mark a line on the pipe at 6.35mm (1/4 in) from the end of the pipe to indicate how far the pipe is to be inserted into the fitting.*
3) For primed joints only, apply a coat of primer around the outside of the pipe and the inside of the fitting. While the primer is still wet, immediately proceed to step 4.
4) Apply a coat of cement around the outside of the pipe and the inside of the fitting.
Push the two pieces together until the marked line and twist 90°. Hold the joint for 15 seconds to ensure that the pieces do not slide apart.
 
I used primer right as I started in this hobby, but stopped shortly thereafter. There isn't any benefit for the pressures seen in our tanks. You won't see any benefit, but it won't hurting you use it.
 
Lol our tanks don't generate enough pressure to ever have to worry about primer nor is an inspector going to come in your home and demand to look under your stand.
 
well from what I read, this is their procedure...

2) Mark a line on the pipe at 6.35mm (1/4 in) from the end of the pipe to indicate how far the pipe is to be inserted into the fitting.*

1/4 on 1/2" pvc is a very short slip... I would expect that to fail. Half of that is probably the bevel, so looking at it funny might break it.

As i recall, IPC code says 4" and under in dwv and non-pressure plumbing no primer is needed (so long as the solvent agrees).

Some solvents are much more aggressive than others, basically having solvent built in.
 
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