Pygmy angels + Super Male Emperor

[FishyMel]

I have a volatile 7-8" super male emperor I've grown from a juvie for 3 years. He is a constant bully to all the fish in the tank and has killed a fuscus trigger (he didn't approve of his fashion sense). Last week I attempted a large Townsend angel with him and the Townsend was back out of the tank in 5 minutles. Complete failure. Do you think that this guy would disapprove of a flame angel or the like? Or can pygmy angels not be mixed with him either. I am figuring that flames are red and orange and very small so he might not see it as a threat.

 

[Jerry W]

I've kept centropyges with large angels, and aside from some occasional posturing, there was no damage done. IME, larger angels don't percieve their smaller cousins as much of a threat or annoyance, so they tend to leave them alone. Tank size and having adequate shelter/hiding spots are also factors.

 

[kirkaz]

Mel, have you considered maybe adding 2 at once? Maybe a Lemonpeel and Flame, LP's are pugnacious little Angels. I am always a fan of adding 2 fish at once with aggressors, seems to throw off their abuse.......I have a Coral Beauty with my Asfur and Emperor, but mine are youngsters.

 

[LisaD]

A timeout for the big guy, with a little rearranging wouldn't hurt either. That's what it took for mine to accept the new blueface and blue spotted angel.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Although folks that try to practice psychology on fish scare me a little; here's my two cents. In this case, I doubt its the species of fish that sets off the Emperor, its just any newcomer is a challenge to his well-established dominance. Look what he did to the unrelated trigger. IMO, LisaD's idea of a time-out and then letting the Emperor be the last fish introduced, along with rearranging rockwork, is your best bet. I've had a couple of fish like this and had to go through this with every new fish. This is a perfect example of the old rule that the most dominate fish should be the last introduced; easy in theory, hard in the real world. Once introduced, they should be fine. BTW, how big a tank? I'm assuming crowding isn't an issue.

 

[kirkaz]

Somebody needs to explain the rearranging rock theory better to me....

It seems to me in my experience after rearranging rocks "aggressive" fish feel the need to reestablish themselves. I redid my rocks 3 weeks ago completely. Following this, my 2 Triggers went at like never before, it was like Godzilla vs King Kong in NYC, neither backed down. My Asfur beat up my Emperor for a bit....Along with that "the boss" (Sohal Tang) was very nasty and reasserted himself to everyone he felt needed it. The aggression went back to normal after a day or so.

To me this theory would work on Blennies or Clownfish (for example), doesn't seem to work on aggressive fish to me....Help me out.

 

[MrTuskfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14070190#post14070190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirkaz
Somebody needs to explain the rearranging rock theory better to me....

It seems to me in my experience after rearranging rocks "aggressive" fish feel the need to reestablish themselves. I redid my rocks 3 weeks ago completely. Following this, my 2 Triggers went at like never before, it was like Godzilla vs King Kong in NYC, neither backed down. My Asfur beat up my Emperor for a bit....Along with that "the boss" (Sohal Tang) was very nasty and reasserted himself to everyone he felt needed it. The aggression went back to normal after a day or so.

To me this theory would work on Blennies or Clownfish (for example), doesn't seem to work on aggressive fish to me....Help me out.

You may be right, Kirk. I've always combined rock rearranging while keeping the aggressor in QT for a while. I guess the theory is that he won't recognize his old surroundings as "his territory". After a little thought; expecting a fish to "remember" rockwork is probably giving it way too much credit; IMO.

 

[kirkaz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14070493#post14070493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MrTuskfish
You may be right, Kirk. I've always combined rock rearranging while keeping the aggressor in QT for a while. I guess the theory is that he won't recognize his old surroundings as "his territory". After a little thought; expecting a fish to "remember" rockwork is probably giving it way too much credit; IMO.

I agree with what you are saying, I guess I am just saying a fish as aggressive as Mels or my Sohal (for example) will see it as a new territory and he has to put everybody in their place in his new territory......I guess I'm saying it maybe works better with "moderately" aggressive fish, perhaps not "highly" aggressive fish.

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

Kirkaz, I definyely see where your coming from. Makes a lot of sense. The biggest thing is you introduce new fish into a habitat that none of your fish have seen before. Your new, less aggressive fish establishes a totally new territory. Then you add your old aggressive fish, their old stopping grounds are gone. So they have to make new ones but the new fish have take up their territories leaving the old fish to find a home elsewhere. Make sense?

 

[FishyMel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069015#post14069015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirkaz
Mel, have you considered maybe adding 2 at once? Maybe a Lemonpeel and Flame, LP's are pugnacious little Angels. I am always a fan of adding 2 fish at once with aggressors, seems to throw off their abuse.......I have a Coral Beauty with my Asfur and Emperor, but mine are youngsters.

I definitely agree with the adding two fish at once. This is what I did with the townsend. I added this guy the day after I added a porcupine puffer and clown trigger. 2 eight inch angels just don't work in a 200.

The rearranging the rockwork theory sometimes works but IME it can also lead to more stress than help, especially with animals like eels, which learn the rock work like no one else.

 

[myerst2]

So I think you have a 200? A real big dominant Emperor will most likely kill almost anything he can catch or torment. It will be touch with a big healthy Emp that has been in that display to allow much of anything in that small of a display. Not that I am saying a 200 is small, but for a big dominant Emperor where the owner wants to keep other fish it will be tough. Ways to try to keep other fish.

If you want Flame Angels. Try and get a pair and even better a trio. I would then partition the display, (plastic eggcrate works well) and give the flames 1/2 of the display and the other portion to the Emperor. Then after a couple of weeks change the partition to the other side of the display and wait another two weeks. Most important is that whatever fish you try and keep with this well adjusted Emp is that the fish being added need to be just as used to the display as the Emp. Using the eggcrate allows the Emp to see the flames. You have to feed the Emp heavily at this point to make him realize he is getting plenty of foof with the newcomers in his territory.

As Lisa said you can remove the Emperor and add the fish you like and wait 2-3 weeks and then re-introduce the Emp. This can work really well. As far as the mirror trick. IMO I think it is stupid to stress out a fish that obviously is doing great for quite a period of time, which is rare with an Emp. Why stress that super healthy on purpose!!!!!!! Seems moronic as all we do as aquarists istry to limit stress as much as possible so they can be as healthy as possible. Just my 2/c. T Love to see a pic of the Emp!!!!

 

[FishyMel]

I'll put some pics up right today. He is really filling out and is starting to grow a streamer which is pretty sweet.

 

[LisaD]

So I think you have a 200? A real big dominant Emperor will most likely kill almost anything he can catch or torment.

Not trying to hijack, but Tim, do you think my emperor will outgrow the tank and not tolerate the other tankmates? (eels, two other angels, rabbitfish, puffer, grouper). I can let a few fish go as he gets bigger, but I'd hate for him to tolerate no other fish. He is dominant, but not bullying any fish right now, but he's just six inches.

 

[myerst2]

IMO each Emp will be a bit different. Certainly won't be like a big passer or clarion. Needless to say that most super mature Pomacanthus and Holocanthus especially ones that have been in someones display from a juvi to adulthood or have made that their display their territory for over 2-3 years will be very aggressive. A 200 gallon display is a large tank but for a big ole' dominant angel they won't like many other fish that would compete for their food source. When you look at why fish are aggressive in the wild, you have to take that information and magnify in a captive environment. The main reason an a large angel will be aggressive or any fish for that matter is competition for food or a fish that looks similar to resident fish. IMO as these angels get larger their territory in the wild gets larger as they need more food. Such is the case in a captive environment. Adding to the problem is that in my experience as these angels get larger their waste output increases, demand for more food increases, while water quality decreases. Usually the fish keeper will look at their large super healthy angel and cut down feeding little by little because water quality is diminishing because of yellowing of water, algae outbreaks, etc. So as this angel is becoming more and more mature, wanting a larger territory, maybe not as well fed as in the past, looking for prospective mates; something has to give. One of the best ways for fish keepers to be more successful is to watch how the fish we like to keep interact in their wild environment. A 5-6" Holocanthus may not have much control over a coral head, but exchange that 5-6" with 9"-11" Angel and oh how the tide changes. Those 3"-4" makes him king of that little piece of the reef, laughing in the face of the that angel who is 3" smaller and immature.

 

[myerst2]

Sorry Lisa I went on a bit of a tangent. I think that your angel will most likely tolerate the fish he currently lives with as it grows. On the other hand as it grows it will become more and more difficult to add a fish without it being completely chased to death. By the way Lisa. I got engaged on New Years Eve!!! Tim

 

[LisaD]

that's good to know, thanks. I'm really not planning to add more fish unless I switch one for another (e.g., a dogface puffer for my porc or smaller fish for zebra moray). If I do that, it will be soon, in the first part of the year.

congratulations on your engagement!!!! what a great way to start the new year. sorry I couldn't get your way when I was in NJ, too tied down and busy with family stuff since I was there just five days.