Q: About Denitrification and sand beds. Please give your .02 .. thanks guys

A

aaron23

In Memoriam
Hey guys hearing sprung and calfo at the conference has made me really think again about my new 120 setup. After the their conferences I spoke to both of them about having enough sand bed for denitrification. They both agreed that it would be best and less of a hassle to have BB with all the siphoning less energy use with pumps etc.... But i was wondering if anybody knew their take on either replacing or just adding sand or what is it that they think would be best? Let me know. thanks guys.
Aaron.
 
After asking Julian a question about sandbeds his answer was that there was more denitrification in the sand bed than in the live rock. According to him, If you have a sand bed you can use alot less live rock. I have read quite a few articles on the subject and my understanding was that you need a bed of at least 4 inches to be effective. And some say even the deeper the better, but I think there is a lot of controversy over the issue. I don't care for BB tanks and think the sand gives it a much more natural look. I think I had more of an issue with BB tanks as far as keeping the bottom clean which I could never seem to do.I kept a 6 gal nano with a 4 in live sand bed that ran for approximately 2 yrs. The tank did remarkably well and never had any algae problems or any problems at all for that matter.. I had a hammer , GSP , candy cane, hammer, Zoa's , polyps, and mushrooms . Everything flourished in that little tank. The hammer doubled in size in 6 mo and so did the Zoa's. The colrals soon outgrew the tank. I placed them in my bigger tank which also had a DSB and that crashed after a year for no apparent reason so go figure.
 
Take a look at this thread about RDSBs (Remote Deep Sand Beds). Interesting reading, and although I'm not 100% in agreement, I do think it could be very useful.
 
I like sand beds. For a DSB to work well, you need a minumum of 4 inches of sand. And yes, I'm in the deeper is better camp ;) For adding to an existing tank, I would only add about a 1/2 inch at a time with additions spaced a week or two apart. This will prevent you from smothering any life forms in the sand and allow for a gradual transition.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6982250#post6982250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vyger
After asking Julian a question about sandbeds his answer was that there was more denitrification in the sand bed than in the live rock. According to him, If you have a sand bed you can use alot less live rock.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into a debate on which is better . Both work well if set up correctly . The problem is knowing who knows what correct is .

The Less live rock thing in a DSB tank is wrong . If You set up a BB tank right , the amount of rock is not that important . Check my gallery for pics , Most people claim I don't use a lot of rock in either of my tanks the 120 or the 58 . As far as the easier part of not having to siphone makes me laugh too . I do weekly water changes with or with out sand , It's not that much harder to put the hose a little deeper and get the small detritus piles that are there .

I'm not saying don't go DSB , Just trying to debunk the bad BB info .

HTH's Joe

PS .

Heres a good link to a thread aboutDSB's Don't mind my role in that thread , I was playing a role trying to get better info on the subject .It's a long read but worth the effort .Good luck !:)
 
The Less live rock thing in a DSB tank is wrong . If You set up a BB tank right , the amount of rock is not that important . Check my gallery for pics , Most people claim I don't use a lot of rock in either of my tanks the 120 or the 58 . As far as the easier part of not having to siphone makes me laugh too . I do weekly water changes with or with out sand , It's not that much harder to put the hose a little deeper and get the small detritus piles that are there .
Click to expand...

I 'm not quite sure I understand... What has the tank setup have to do with the amount rock used which would determine the amount of bacteria colonized in the rock to properly process ammonia...and are you saying there is isn't enough bacteria in the sand , hence Julian 's statement is wrong. I really want to get this right because my next tank setup may be based on this and that's why I asked him the question...
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6983273#post6983273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vyger
I 'm not quite sure I understand... What has the tank setup have to do with the amount rock used which would determine the amount of bacteria colonized in the rock to properly process ammonia...and are you saying there is isn't denitrifying bacteria in the sand , hence Julian 's statement is wrong. I really want to get this right because my next tank setup may be based on this and that's why I asked him the question...
Click to expand...

I'm not saying anything close to Julian being wrong . I do believe that most of the Authers and experts dismissed BB tanks A while ago . With the improvements on skimmers and other devices help keep better water quality comparerd to 10-15 years ago .

Yes sand has a higher amount of area to perform the dentrification , But if what is being broken down is removed before the need of the D cycle then that area is not needed .

It's a theory of remove it before it brakes down and you need less bacterial zones .

Does that help ?

I'm not saying my way is better , but it is different from the norm . Both have pros and cons and for me in most cases I like BB better . There are times I think a DSB better suites the needs though . It's all about you and what you want . I just don't like the missleading info on BB tanks .

Joe
 
Gotcha... I read most of that link you posted and it's really difficult to say for certain what was giving the problem , maybe a combination of things....your tank looked awsome anyway LOL I just want to set up a new large ( well large for me)tank using less live rock and more corals, so that was my reasoning behind the sand question, basically substituting sand for live rock..I used to have large reef tanks but due to time issues years ago I went to keeping smaller tanks which were easier, but then the tanks became numerous so I might as well go back to a larger one..LOL
 
Well just guessing , I think the failure was due to the refugium and not the DSB . I believe the BB brought me out of the funk much faster though .

Joe
 
BB was the thing to do back in early 90's, and much effort was made to keep all the rock off the bottom of the tank, etc. and they work. Its very unnatural looking and requires work of siphoning the detritus.
DSB do work, but they are a finite resource and will fail if they sand is not kept clean of detritus over time, especially if you have a heavier fish load. If you have a lighter fish load and not much feeding, they can last a long time, but detritus buildup will eventually catch up to you.
SSB (Shallow Sand Bed) looks good, gives some reflective light to the corals and you have the benefit of sand dwelling critters. If you feed heavily, its easy to clean but you have to remove the detritus even if you don't have a heavy fish load.
Algae scrubbers/ refugium work, but if the algae grows too thick, it will accumulate detritus.

Use any method you want, but you need to keep the detritus from accumulating over time. That is what I believe to be the time bomb, and if you don't address it, that bomb will go off.
Joe
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6984503#post6984503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justjoe
That says it all Joe, well said!!
Click to expand...
I didn't say anything .....:D

I just put pictures to your words .....:lol:








I want to add my disclaimer ( These are just opinions I have made on what I prefer . It is not to be taken as my way is better then any other) End of disclaimer .;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6984320#post6984320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justjoe
Use any method you want, but you need to keep the detritus from accumulating over time. That is what I believe to be the time bomb, and if you don't address it, that bomb will go off.
Joe
Click to expand...

I definately agree with Joe on this. There is no maintenance free method out there. For a DSB or even a shallow sand bed, I believe in periodically stirring up the upper couple of inches of sand to suspend and filter out the detritus. Skimmers will pull out a fair amount, some will settle in the sump and be easily siphoned out, and even periodically running a canister filter loaded with filter floss can be effective. It's also best to only do this to a portion of the sand bed at a time, to allow any disturbed to fauna to reestablish itself.
 
I'm a little confused, (nothing new in this hobby), when maintaining a DSB wouldn't you disturb/eliminate some of the inhabitants, in the DSB, by siphoning? Also in a related yet unrelated topic: Do you have to rinse Southdown Sand before adding to the tank?
 
Yes you would disturb and maybe even loose a few sand bed critters when disturbing the bed, but that's why you should only do it one section at a time. They will recolonize the disturbed area, fairly quickly too ;)

I never rinse Southdown., you want all those fine particulates. It'll get a bit cloudy, but in an established tank the small particulates will get a bio coating and settle out in only a couple of days. New set ups will be cloudy for a couple of weeks.
 
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