QT question please

[Mike de Leon]

I have now just bought two fishes (Achilles, Blue Face Juvi) and both are in excellent shape.
Ihave placed them in a 55 Gal QT. So far, the tank is at 1.017 SG. I am thinking of leaving it at that for a couple of weeks for observation.
If they don't end up with any parasites after two weeks or so is it safe to place them in the display? Or should I take steps of prevention (ie, Cupra or Hypo)? And what's better between the two?
Please help!!

THX

 

[leebca]

Before I answer, I'd recommend you review this excellent article on the subject:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

If you follow the above guidelines, you'd be almost 98% safe and sound with your QT procedure.

As far as tangs to, they are one of two types of fish that I would always treat even if I see no disease. Since they are so susceptible to both Marine Ich and Marine Velvet, I treat them with copper, which is the only treatment to kill both diseases.

I'd raise the specific gravity on the QT, or just let it drift up to your display tank specific gravity, while you proceed to treat the tangs with a copper treatment.

After the copper treatment (which should take about 14 days), leave the fish in the QT for further observation for no less than 4 more weeks, in my opinion.

Anyway. . .two weeks quarantine is NEVER long enough for ANY fish. Although the above article recommends 4 weeks, I perform and strongly recommend a 6-week quarantine on all fishes.

Congratulations on using the QT process for new specimens! Good luck!
:rollface:

 

[Mike de Leon]

You're awesome Lee. Thanks for taking the time! People like you is a breath of fresh air in this very challenging hobby.
Happy reefing!

 

[leebca]

You're very kind. We who help out here, donating our time, are either ignored, argued with, or never hear from the poster. Appreciation is sometimes rare. Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[Hattie B]

Lee/everyone

I saw a fish that was at the LFS and had ich (it was the owners display fish) and she said that he was eating so she was going to let him fight it off naturally.

Does that really happen? Just takes a really long time? (it was a hippo tang)

ps. Lee if you see this.. Your a chemist down south?.. San Diego area?
I work up here (Bio-tech bay) I'm going to Anti-Cancer in a few weeks..
(I work at a small molecule organization..heheh.. I could go on and on).

 

[leebca]

I'm afraid that the 'fish fighting it off' is more wishful thinking than it is fact. The parasite doesn't care if the fish is healthy, sick, well fed or in any particular kind of health. It will infect if it has the opportunity.

The problem with fish in captivity is that they can't get away from the free-swimming, infecting Theronts of the Marine Ich. In the wild, the fish moves on to other water and often times can avoid re-infection. But in a 'glass box' the fish can't escape the infection.

What can happen and sometimes does, is the fish after a few weeks will develop a tolerance or semi-immunity to the disease OR the disease, having gone through so many life cycles, has become weakened and its infection isn't that strong, OR a combo of these two. BUT -- the disease will take its toll.

Check out this post of mine:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=754008

Out of about 57 fishes, 52 died. I don't like those odds of surviving the disease and I believe it isn't a responsible approach to not help a diseased fish. Can you imagine applying this approach to your dog or cat? or your grandma?

---------------

I live in the "Inland Empire" which is 50 miles east of Los Angeles.
I have two degrees, one in Microbiology and one in Chemistry. Both from OSU. I worked with ornamental fish in the early '70's to further study and find ways to eradicate MI in captive fish.

:rollface:

 

[Mike de Leon]

Lee,

I see you prefer Copper instead of hypo. What is your reasoning?
Also, does hypo affect beneficial bacteria? I have planned on doing hypo with live rock, sand with hang on filter and skimmer on the tank.
I have found in the past that using chemicals makes maintaining water quality very difficult.

Also, How does marine velvet look like?

 

[leebca]

Marine Velvet isn't killed by hypo treatment. If you read closely to what I wrote, I wrote that copper was the only cure for both the parasites. When it comes to a treatment for Marine Ich (alone), I prefer to use hyposalinity.

Marine Velvet is hard to detect. On the fish, you might see very fine white specs, sort of like powdered sugar. But, quite often by the time you see this, the fish is close to death. You won't find many photos of fish with this disease, since as I mentioned, if they have the MV spots, they are almost certainly doomed. Marine Velvet moves very quickly and is very devastating. You might want to read more about it:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.htm

Of all the ornamental fish diseases/parasites I've come across in this hobby, Marine Velvet is the one that successfully kills fish before the hobbyist can even react. A casual look at the fish in your aquarium once a day is not good enough. There needs to be at least a daily close inspection of each fish in your aquarium.

A fair first sign is the fish begins to 'breath' fast. That's the time to take action. But unfortunately, breathing fast is indicative of several gill afflictions/infections, stress, and water quality problems. But when breathing fast is combined with dashing around the aquarium, or scratching, that is about as early a sign as the aquarist will get for this disease. Even though Marine Ich is more prevalent, I'd take 10 cases of it any day, rather than one case of Marine Velvet.

A hypo treatment does not kill the biological filter bacteria. But there can be problems. There are at least two to be concerned about, and a third sort of minor:

Quite often the bacteria slow their metabolism with the change in salinity. They may take a few days to adjust to the new salinity before they resume their normal 'eating' function. This can be a problem and the aquarist has to monitor ammonia and nitrite two or three times a day, at least at the beginning of a hypo treatment.

But the problem with doing hypo in the presence of live sand and live rock is that there are usually so many copepods, which are crustaceans, which are invertebrates, which will die during the hypo treatment. Their massive death will overload the struggling biological filter and complicate the water quality. It is one reason why hypo treatments are recommended in the QT.

Third, in the fight against Marine Ich, you don't want any place for the cysts to hide or otherwise take refuge, so I would avoid the LR for sure.

Hope the above is helpful. Ask if you have questions. I'm happy to share.

 

[Mike de Leon]

Thanks again Lee. I would love to see a few pics of your tanks. They must look great.
Regards,

 

[Mike de Leon]

Lee,

I have decided to do hypo. So far, so good. However, every so often some ich would still show up on the Achilles for about a day then disappear. What does this mean? They are in hypo now for about three weeks. SG fluctuates from 1.008 to 1.009. I always keep it in check. I hope the ich isn't getting immune to hypo.

 

[Mike de Leon]

Correction, not three weeks in hypo. It is closer to two weeks.....

 

[leebca]

There are stubborn Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) around, but not likely you're dealing with it.

Are you sure your salinity doesn't creep up now and then from evaporation? It's easy to slip up during the long treatment process. I've slipped up myself on treatment. You need to be very accurate with measuring salinity. Only a refractometer will do this. I hope you're using a refractometer to monitor the salinity.

Next, shoot for a salinity of 11ppt. Use salinity instead of ppt since salinity is corrected for temperature. Read this regarding that:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/specificgravity.html

The hyposalinity water only makes it difficult for the free swimming. infectious Theronts to survive. Remember, it doesn't kill them outright -- it just stresses them without stressing the fish.

You can facilitate the removal of the free swimming Theronts and cysts by siphoning them out. This would mean that you siphon/vacuum water from the bottom of the hospital tank twice a day. Always in the early morning (since many of the cysts drop off at night) and at night just before lights go out. If you have pipe or decor in the hospital tank, siphon around, in, and on them when you do the siphoning/vacuuming of the tank bottom --- in other words, you want to siphon all surfaces near the bottom of the tank. After siphoning, removing the decor and hiding places to rinse in DI/RO water and then returning them is a good idea.

Lastly, contamination is the most prevalent detriment to a successful hyposalinity treatment. Using equipment that carries over contaminated water; adding foreign water or using wet equipment from the tank can cause the MI to linger and reinfect the tank. This is also very easy to do (I've done that too!).

Watching and doing these should get you over the edge.

Do you know when you're done treating? It is when you have four weeks of no visible signs of spots. Don't be surprised to find the process takes one or two months to complete. Remember -- the MI are just being stressed to death, not outright killed, by this kind of treatment.

Good luck! Just ask if you have ? :rollface: